Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I spoke to Victoria Davis about obtaining a new interstsate commerce permit to aquire a new couperi specimen. During the conversation it was revealed to me that the price for the permit is being proposed for an increase from $25.oo to $100.oo . Sorry, but that ain't right! We need to put a stop to this NOW! Only question is,...HOW. Or should we just sit around with our heads in the sand as usual? Any suggestions?
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Did Victoria give a reason for the increase?

I see this activating more illegal interstate trade.

The harder they make it for people to acquire people will look for the other option.

Demand will spark the already alive black market trade.

The only fix I can come up with is letters of discontent to DNR in a manner that will explain to them this 75.00 hike will influence wild collecting efforts, driving across state lines to acquire, and it may turn the honest prudent man into making a bad move.

M2C…..Dann

I have been seeing a lot of states trying to take advantage of permit fees more and more lately.

I am going to KY next week to do a talk, and I had to buy a $25 "transportation permit" just to bring a few snakes into KY for a day for an educational talk.

I think they are just trying to take advantage of hobbiests that they know are passionate and will pay whatever they make them pay.

Also...it gives them a reason to issue heavy fines when people do not get the permit. KY fish and wildlife raided the KY reptile show last weekend. They went around and asked all the vendors what state they were from. If they were from outside KY, they asked for their transportation permit. If they didn't have it, they were given a $100 citation.

I can understand the legislation on native herps...I don't believe in taking animals from the wild to sell. But this stuff boggles my mind. It sure is taking the fun out of this hobby.

...but maybe that's the objective.

I have seen fees for Federal services go up for years, starting with Forest Use fees. Yes, grazing fees are still low, and I do not like that, but there is an influential lobby at work there, and I am not in a position to make a meaningful challenge as an individual, although I can add my voice to existing groups if I wish.

Other fee increases have been in areas such as airport inspections of international shipments of live and dead wildlife, and processing fees for same. The Agency explanation has been that for many years, agencies have been charging nominal fees that did not approach actually recouping the cost to the agency of performing the service. During the 1990's, municipal agencies everywhere were cut off from supportive funding, and needed to start recouping more realistic fees. It's likely that the fee increase for interstate permits reflects this trend, and $100 is closer to the actual value of the permit once it's fully processed. Is there any hope of considering that keeping the permit process available is preferable to seeing it abandoned for lack of funding or fiscal viability?

I live in TX and as far as I know there are no breeders of Eastern Indigos here, I'm now thinking that I should buy a permit before the price is increased. So my question is when is this supposed to be in effect and how long do permits last?

You really can't get a permit until you've actually got a purchase lined up.

I've seen the time period vary from 30 days to several months. I think the 30 day period is the standard but you might get that extended if you have reasons that you can put in your request.

I wouldn't worry too much about the cost of the permit. It will have an effect on the demand and it'll probably all wash out the same.

Bummer for us breeders.

Doug T

>>I live in TX and as far as I know there are no breeders of Eastern Indigos here, I'm now thinking that I should buy a permit before the price is increased. So my question is when is this supposed to be in effect and how long do permits last?

It may dissuade some buyers, but all in all, I doubt an additional $75 is going to stop someone who is planning to buy a snake costing from $400-$1600 based on age of the snake.
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0 of 3 goals complete, but all in good time.

- Eastern Indigo
- Redtail Hawk
- Neopolitan Mastiff

Yes, but that's not the point. We don't need big brother sticking it to us any more than he already does. And while it probably isn't such a big deal all by itself, it's just another straw in the basket. And we don't need him regulating private breeders, or owners, or private transactions either.

Heres one for ya,... you can move to a state where a breeder lives, buy an indigo, and move right back where you came from, and never have to tell a soal. If you live there long enough to be a resident. But you can't go to that state, and buy one, and turn right around and go back, without a federal interstate commerce permit. To me,...that's just plain silly. What's the difference exept the amount of time I spend in that state? What's the difference if I buy one in my own state or not?

Here's another one for ya,...The origional federal interstate commerce act was passed in 1887, to keep the railroad companies in check. Now you tell me how that has anything to do with where I buy a snake!

So then what is the purpose, and spirit of the current federal laws regarding this animal? What exactly does this law do for the Eastern Indigo? Nothing. It puts more of our money in the hands of a burocracy.

Rape will continue until the victim fights back hard enough. I heard a very good quote the other day, I think it was by Thomas Jefferson,..."The difference between democracy and freedom is this. In democracy, the wolf, coyote, and lamb all vote on what's for supper. In freedom, the lamb is armed and able to contest the vote".

But knowbody seems to care what's for supper, so for now, I will shut up. Later,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

I wasn't saying that most buyers would LIKE spending an extra $75, I was just saying they would do it, regardless.
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0 of 3 goals complete, but all in good time.

- Eastern Indigo
- Redtail Hawk
- Neopolitan Mastiff

At what point do you think we should start complaining?
$200, 500, 1,000?? Where does it stop?

Eric

Each person has their own limit at which point they will say, "Nope, that's too high." But to think that they are going to arbitrarily continue to up the fee till they get to $500 or $1000 is excessive. Yes the government does like to creep up the cost of things once in a while, but they know there is a finite limit they can go to.

The government knows they can't raise a license to $500 or $1000 to own a $400-$1600 snake. It becomes too large a percentage of the total cost, and in some cases could become more than the cost of the animal. The only way they could justify a $1000 license fee would be if breeders were charging $10,000-$15,000 for a snake (like some of the Ball Python morphs people sell).

I will agree the government will try to get what they can out of a license fee, but they know there are realistic limits to how much you can charge for something before people will find an alternative.

That's why US Postage Stamps aren't $2.00 each, because then some private company would come up with an alternative, and the government would lose out on the revenue they are currently generating.

If interstate licenses went to $500 each, I think you would start seeing more breeders popping up in other states where there are none. If that was the case, then no license would be needed and breeders could actually charge a couple hundred more per animal than they do now, because it would still be cheaper than buying out of state, and none of the money goes to the government.

Higher profit margins will inspire more breeders, unfortunately there is no way to know if they will be as good as some of the other breeders already around today.

On another note, all in-state sales have to pay any applicable Sales Taxes to the state or local governments. In Arizona my local sales tax is 8.1%, so on a $500 snake I am paying $40.50 in taxes, so I'm already paying more in tax than the current $25 license fee I would need for an out-of-state purchase.

The local purchase saves me on shipping costs, but then again if I had to drive The Beast (my Ford Excursion) across state to pick my snake up from a "local" breeder, it might be cheaper to fly it in.
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0 of 3 goals complete, but all in good time.

- Eastern Indigo
- Redtail Hawk
- Neopolitan Mastiff

Eric,
I haven't seen anything that mentions those numbers. Are there currect plans to increase the fees to $1,000.00 in the increments you mentioned? I would say that considering the fact that the $20.00 fee has been in place since the ESA was enacted in 1973, it's going to take them a couple hundred years to get to $1,000.00 anyway. By then there probably won't be any Indigos left. Especially if the agencies that are in place to protect them can't get the funding they need.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

It's a proposed change. It hasn't been approved yet. Even if it does get approval and go into effect, it's an additional $75.00 on the total deal. So, you pay $750.00 or more for an Eastern Indigo, another $50.00 or so for shipping and $100.00 for the permit. So it's a $900.00 deal instead of an $825.00 deal. It's a pain, and nobody likes it much, but I don't think it's going to be a deal-killer very often.

I also don't agree that this is going to cause normally honest, law-abiding citizens to go out and poach Indigos or illegally transport them across state lines. Anyone that would do that over $75.00 is an idiot and deserves to go to jail.

The fact is that you can still get a permit. It may cost a few dollars more if the changes go into effect, but at least they will still issue it. The way I see it, it provides additional revenue for the USFWS people that take care of the permit process. That takes away one potential excuse they could have for not issuing them anymore.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I completely agree. Since my wildlife center is under the umbrella of a city government, I fully understand that governmental institutions are being forced to find new sources of revenue to continue to operate with fewer tax dollars; that's just the reality of the situation. I for one would have ZERO problems in forking out $100 for a permit and as you said, in the big scheme of things, it is really no big deal. An indigo lives over 20 years and you pay an extra $75 for the permit...do the math....NO BIGGIE FOLKS. If this becomes a deal killer then that person shouldn't own an indigo.

I respectfully disagree guys. I believe this is just a sign of things to come. If they do indeed raise the price & no one complains they will just raise it again and again. That's what big government does. They screw us every chance they get! We already pay way too much in taxes and that's all this really is, is a TAX!

Government doesn't need to generate more revenues, they need to do a better job of managing and budgeting just like everyone else does!!!

I believe the attitude that this is no big deal is a very dangerous attitude indeed!

Eric

Also, I don't agree that a person should be disqualified from owning an indigo simply because that person isn't willing to pay a fortune to do so.

The price of an indigo is already high (but worth the cost) which makes it tough for some people. Why should they have to spend even more of their hard earned money in government extortion charges?

Eric

Eric, I hear where you are coming from but as I mentioned, I, in essence work for the government, and by no means do we waste tax payer's money nor do we operate innefficiently (not by a long shot). I know how cash strapped government agencies like the DNR, USFWS are...believe me, they don't like raising permit fees any more than we like to pay them but they don't really have a choice. Victoria does a heck of a job trying to get everyone's permits approved in addition to the rest of the staff in her office. Same goes for the great folks from the IDNR (IL Dept. of Natural Resources) who have been nothing but truly wonderful to work with. I would GLADLY and HAPPILY pay the extra money knowing that it is helping their agency run better and to continue to operate. This is just the reality of the situation and a necessary inconvenience and one we must be willing to support. Because I tend to charge much less than other indigo breeders, they (state/feds) could jack up the cost by $200 and the folks obtaining indigos from me would still be getting a great deal. Paying up to $1 thousand, to me, isn't all that bad, even though I would have a hard time charging that much, if you truly want an indigo. It's all about supply and demand. I for one will be upping my prices next year and if demand goes down, so will the prices. If demand stops completely, then I will just enjoy a few pet indigos (and boy does that actually sound like a great idea!).

If permit fees began to escalate, as you fear, then I would simply deduct that off the normal fee of an indigo...it can be that simple. Most of us who are serious couperi breeders truly do it for the joy of working with such an incredible animal; not the money (I probably lose money in working with this species). Believe me, I could make much more money focusing on other breeding projects, that would be far more cost efficient, however, I have chosen to work with this species because it is an animal I have been interested in since I was a young boy. If folks interested in obtaining an indigo don't want to pay the money, then they can get a black pine, a black king.....maybe even a black racer!

The only snake I own ATM is a normal Ball Python, which I bought based on the maximum size of about 4-4.5 feet. Once I started reading more about them I started hearing about these BPs called "morphs". Wow how cool they looked, but then I looked at the prices on some of these. "HOLY CRAP $15,000 for a Mohave Ball Python?!?!" Time to find a new species of snake to work with. Burmese have cool looking albinos, but I don't want a snake that is going to be 15-20ft long, because my wife's gonna freak if I have to start feeding her beloved rabbits to it.

Cuperi are absolutely beautiful snakes and fortunately for me only reach 7 or 8ft long. Sounds like a great combination to me, so am I willing to pay up to $1000 for one and a license? Sure. Would I prefer if it was cheaper? Of course, but as Rob said "supply and demand".

So Rob, how much are you raising prices? I need to know how much to save for next summer, assuming you have enough to get to my spot on the waiting list.
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0 of 3 goals complete, but all in good time.

- Eastern Indigo
- Redtail Hawk
- Neopolitan Mastiff

Your'e all missing my point. My point is that the current federal law, does absolutely nothing FOR the indigo. It just costs us time, money, and inconveinience. And it generates a need within the burocracy to hire someone to do a job that does not need to be done, and collect fees that otherwise would not be needed. And it gives them an excuse to take more money if they want, or to probe into our privacy if they want. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that I can see. And it is time to fix that. A large fund raising not for profit organization is our best hope for that. And if we choose to accept the current status quo, then we deserve whatever we get.

I did not mean to anoy, or aggrivate anyone, I just call'em like I see'em. That's my opinion for whatever it's worth. And sooner or later we will have our National Herp Society. When we do,...I'll be there, and I hope you will ALL join me. I will even accept you if you are a goverment employee. Heck, aside from my military service, I also spent four years as a federal civil service employee. I can tell you without a doubt, that the government is extremely wasteful, and most of what it does internaly makes little if any sense. What I saw was a bunch of fat cat burocrats covering their butts, playing politics, and doing everything possible to maintain their own job security. I am sure that this is the rule, and not the exeption. At least from where I was. I can't speak for what this other guy is witness to. What part of the Federal Government did you say you were working for?
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Is it not Federal law, which has granted protected status to the for D. coperi?
Is it not Federal money which provides for the acquisition and maintenance of Federal lands, which may pose as the last natural habitat harboring specimens in the wild?
Isn't the largest and most enduring study regarding D. couperi in the wild, being funded with Federal money?
What exactly is it you are accusing the Government of "not" doing?

Jeff

I am accusing the federal government of NOT using the fee for the interstate commerce permit to help the Indigo. That money is hardly enough to process the paperwork, let alone have any left over for the programs you mentioned. The fee money goes to process the paperwork for the permit, which, in, and of itself, does nothing to help the Indigo. It just makes what should be a simple transaction between two people, into a pain in the keester.

Now you are gonna laugh,... I'd be glad to pay $100 for a permit, if I didn't have to jump through any hoops, and that money would all go directly for the programs you mentioned.

The fact is, that they are taking our money to pay for a buracratic process which should not exist in the first place, and does nothing to help the Indigo. The money they take goes to pay for the permitting process, which if you buy from someone in your own state, they don't get anyway. That's all I'm saying.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

I didn't get a chance to address your comment earlier; I am curator of a very successful living wildlife museum (The Wildlife Discovery Center) which is home to many native and non native herps (including venomous) and raptors. We fall under the umbrella of a city municapility (GOVERNMENT) and once again, we are VERY prudent in how we operate and manage our funds.

As far as missing your point, I personally don't know what your point is. Every response was well written and validated by sound reasoning and argument.

Saving indigos goes far beyond the actual act of seeing them in the wild. There must be a permit process to protect them....in other words, there must be a permit in order to ensure that this animal is not further compromised by endangerement. This costs money. The permits help fund the "process" and as such, ends up helping the indigo. But, it looks like this isn't going to sink in.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

The permit process to which you refered as being helpful to save Indigos, is not, at least as far as I can see. Once the paperwork for the permit has been processed, there isn't any money left from that permit to help buy habitat, or anything else.

The permit is like a boat full of holes. It simply does not float. I know it has good intentions, but it realy dosen't regulate anything. It just makes it more difficult for honest folks like us to aquire an Indigo.

For me, it has most definately "sunk in". Not sure I can say the same for anyone who thinks this permit is a good thing. Later,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Tony,
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you here, but asking a question:

Why do you say that "the current Federal law does nothing for the Indigos"?

Which Federal Law? The laws pertaining to the ESA and the Indigo's listing regarding posession and wild collecting? CITES regulations regarding interstate commerce? What is it that you expect the law to do for them and what is it that the law is not doing? These laws are pretty sweeping and broad in coverage, and run the gamut from regulating possession and collection, protecting habitat, governing trade in listed species, providing for funding for research and recovery programs, etc. It's hard to know which part you're referring to.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Sorry for the confusion, I guess I assumed you all knew what I was talking about. I should have learned my lesson about assuming when I was in the Army.

All I'm talking about is the interstate commerce permit. This thing dosen't do anything positive that I can see. As far as the rest of it goes, I am all for it. To me, this whole permit thing is a big fat boondogle! It does make it difficult to purchase an Indigo from someone who lives in another state. And the fact that we have to pay to make it difficult, and the fact that there is a proposed increase to make it more difficult, and the fact that I beleive it's none of big brothers buisness if I want to buy an Indigo from another state or not, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. That's all I meant.

If the government wants to charge me a fee to buy an Indigo, and use that money to help the indigos in the wild, and if they make no distinction about where the breeder and I live, and I don't have to fill out a bunch of paperwork, and justify my actions, and wait for their permission, I'm all for it. "Currently" we have the opposite going on. And to me, it just doesn't make sense. What difference does it make to them what state I live in? What difference does any of the stuff you have to explain first make to them? And why charge a fee, if it won't even cover the wages for the persons who process the paperwork? Why do they need to poke their noses into our buisness at all? Frankly, I think they need to worry more about the WILD animals, and their habitat, and leave us alone.

That's pretty much my whole beef with the way things are. Does anyone else feel the way I do? Or am I just crazy? Well I know I'm crazy,...but does anyone think this makes sense? Sorry for stirring things up, it was not my intent to start an argument, but it looks like that 's what it has devolved into.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

>>Sorry for the confusion, I guess I assumed you all knew what I was talking about. I should have learned my lesson about assuming when I was in the Army.
>>
>>All I'm talking about is the interstate commerce permit. This thing dosen't do anything positive that I can see. As far as the rest of it goes, I am all for it. To me, this whole permit thing is a big fat boondogle! It does make it difficult to purchase an Indigo from someone who lives in another state. And the fact that we have to pay to make it difficult, and the fact that there is a proposed increase to make it more difficult, and the fact that I beleive it's none of big brothers buisness if I want to buy an Indigo from another state or not, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. That's all I meant.
>>
>>If the government wants to charge me a fee to buy an Indigo, and use that money to help the indigos in the wild, and if they make no distinction about where the breeder and I live, and I don't have to fill out a bunch of paperwork, and justify my actions, and wait for their permission, I'm all for it. "Currently" we have the opposite going on. And to me, it just doesn't make sense. What difference does it make to them what state I live in? What difference does any of the stuff you have to explain first make to them? And why charge a fee, if it won't even cover the wages for the persons who process the paperwork? Why do they need to poke their noses into our buisness at all? Frankly, I think they need to worry more about the WILD animals, and their habitat, and leave us alone.
>>
>>That's pretty much my whole beef with the way things are. Does anyone else feel the way I do? Or am I just crazy? Well I know I'm crazy,...but does anyone think this makes sense? Sorry for stirring things up, it was not my intent to start an argument, but it looks like that 's what it has devolved into.
>>T.
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>>"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

OK, now I get where you're coming from.

I think that the whole idea is just to have some way of controlling the transfer and sale of listed species. If they don't control that, then what is the point of listing them? If you are going to allow people to just freely trade in Endangered Species, there's no point in even listing them for protection in the first place. What they want to do is first make sure that the animals being transferred are, in fact, legally obtained and held animals, and secondly that they are going to be properly cared for by the new owner. Also, they want to capture information on who has these animals that may be qualified and willing to help with future captive propagation efforts if they need it. As far as the fee goes, when this program was initiated 30 years ago, $20.00 was enough to cover the costs of processing the applications. Now it isn't.

The reason that they are concerned with interstate commerce is that's where their jurisdiction is. They have no control over animals you have until it crosses state lines (or unless it crossed state lines on the way to you). That's just like any Federal law except for a very few. The exceptions are Bank Robbery, violations of Class III weapons laws, assaults on Federal Officers, or employees, Mail Fraud (whether or not the fraud crossed state lines), and crimes committed on Federal Government property.

You have to remember that they could have just as easily written the laws so that no private individual could possess one of these animals at all. At least we can possess them and we can get permits to transfer them from one place to another, and the cost is not prohibitive even at $100.00.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yah, I understand , but they really don't control anything. That would be like saying I have control over all four of my car's tires but I leave the lug nuts off of one or two wheels. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that they are interested in the welfare of these animals, but the whole thing still just dosen't make sense to me. Again, sorry about stirring things up. Oh well, like I always say, when I'm stirred up, at least I know I'm alive.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

If avacados are $2.00 a piece every where you go, and you want to eat avacado, you will find a creative way to find avacado even though you can not afford it. And I don,t mean braking the law.

Guys/Gals,

Sounds like a rant but its not.

I resepctuflly agree to disagree. That may sound like so much diatribe, but in reality I think that both Eric and Rob have a point.
On Robs hand, he is saying that the fees, even if they are increased are NOMINAL when you consider the longevity of the snake and how rare it is. I **AGREE** totally, there shouldnt be a problem forking out another $75 just to keep a snake or purchase a snake that is RARE and hard to get to begin with.

Eric makes a GREAT point, and that is the intervention of the governement on our monies via TAXES...FEES..LEVIES on EVERYTHING we use. And it it true...
But consider this...a LOT of money goes every year into our military..or "seemingly" does so, most likely into technology. Enlisted guys still dont make much, Marines and Army Soldiers in Iraq arent out fitted with flak jackets. Marine WIVES here at home with kids that have to apply for friggin food stamps just to make it(Damn shame)...but the government still asks for more and more money for the expenditure.VETERANS recently had their benefits CUT...Woops...

I think we shouldnt be asking WHY we have to pay a small fee to transport a rare snake across state lines so much as we ought to be DEMANDING why this Current Administration as demanded a blank check, signed by us to pay for goods and services that the military never even receives... And this doesnt mean that Kerrys administration wouldnt do the same, dont kid yourself.
And dont forget the blank check we have given them for National Security under todays PATRIOT ACT. Homeland security that is so expensive that States have to ask the Fed government to bail them out because they cant afford to pay for the Secutrity that has been mandated by the Congress.

THATS where OUR hard earned tax dollars goes. A good portion to waste, a goodly portion to paying lip service to homeland security, whilst *Bin Laden* runs around free and clear.....and lets not forget the BILLION we give ISRAEL..in weaponry and funds.

Nah...the increase to ship an Indigo seems miniscule by comparison. The things mentioned above are our real problems.

Sincerely,
Fred Albury

P.S
These are my opinions, I can understand that others may differ with them,our taxes go to a plethra of things that dont help us as working tax paying citzens much...and the largest one of them is above......blank checks dont work well

Hey Fred, nice to hear from you, and I agree,...pretty much. But for the record I would like to re-state my position.

My beef is not so much that I have to pay a fee, or even that the fee is going up. My problem is that the money collected for the fee, is not enough to do any good for the snakes. It barely covers the cost of processing the paperwork for the permit, and that the permit has so many ways around it, that it is like a boat full of holes, and we are all aboard. While it has good intentions, it only comes into play on a realatively small portion of possible transactions. It does not cover ALL transactions. If they are going to have such a permitting process,... fine, so be it. And if they want to charge more for it,...fine so be it. But lets plug the holes in this boat first.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

is that people believe they really have any effect on the opinions of others on issues like these.

Eric and snakeman obviously didn't get all riled up about the Government (yes, with a capital G!) trying to get a stronger stranglehold on their liberties just because of a $75 increase in a permit they probably already have. They felt this way before and simply view this as yet more evidence of the dark days ahead.

Those of us who don't share those paranoid delusions (oops, I said it!) don't particularly like the amount of money we have to spend to get services (a military, police, legislators, endangered species permits) but we understand that it is just the cost of living in a large society. Frankly, we get a hell of a deal here when it comes to the amount of services our tax dollars buy. Don't believe me? Go live somewhere else and see what your tax dollars provide there.

But my point is that no matter what we say here, there are two disparate points of view that are so entrenched that our words fall on deaf ears. I am not going to (or trying to) change Eric's or snakeman's opinions. Nor will they "educate" me.

The most important thing is to accept the simple fact that those who don't agree with you don't necessarily do so out of ignorance. There are some really smart people who disagree with me about a lot of things.

I personally don't own an indigo, and don't want one at the moment. But I wouldn't have any problem paying $25 or $100 for a permit to own one. Anyone who can't, simply can't afford to own an indigo.

I don't hear anyone screaming at Dean and the others for asking for $400+ for a baby snake. That's where the lion's share of the cost of ownership is. If the snake cost $25 and the permit was $100, I could see the beef.

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Chris Harrison

Agreed.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Sorry if I seem paranoid or dillusional to you. And sorry if my spelling, and grammar are not up to your standards. I have not taken any personal shots at you, please do me the same courtisy.

I'm not talking about our tax dollars. I'm talking about a fee to pay the wages for someone to process the paperwork for a permit that we should not have to get in the first place. If we buy within our home state, we don't have to bother with it at all. What difference does it make what state we live in, as long as we don't take from wild populations? Who cares? Why should we have to pay, and now pay more, for a permit that realy isn't needed? The permit does nothing good that I can see. If someone wants to take one from the wild, THEN make it as difficult and expensive, and cluttered with red tape as possible. But if people want to buy, sell, or trade captive bred and born Indigos, they should be able to do so without this goofy permit, wherever they live, without having to ask for permission from big brother. And if we have to pay a fee, that's fine , so be it. As long as that fee money goes to benifit the wild population. As it is now, the fee won't have anything left over to help wild populations. It just covers the cost of processing the paperwork for a permit that does nothing.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

I too, do not see what the big deal is. The 25.00 fee has been in place for almost 20 years now, and I believe it's long over due for an increase.
Also, I see a lot of discussion on the board, in regards to repatriation and reintroduction, genetic studies, various studies regarding natural history and other projects. I believe it should be pointed out, such projects require money, so I have no problem shelling out a few extra dollars for a permit to receive an endangered specimen.
By the way, don't believe we are the only people this will have an impact upon. Such permits are required for the interstate transport of any listed species of flora and fauna, and I too, doubt such an increase will create an influx of illegal transport.
It makes no sense to believe an increase in the price of a permit to "transport" a specimen, across state lines, will lead to an influx of poaching. Personally, I believe such an increase would have a positive effect, regarding the poaching of such specimens from the wild.
I do believe that Dean made a valid point, in regards to the individual states trying to "cash in" on the permit process, especially in regards to specimens not native to the state requiring such.

Jeff

Well let see. To possess a venomous reptile in our state requires a permit, renewed annually per animal. This permit also subjects the owner to surprise inspection of his facility by state DNR people, monthly. Its only 10.00 per animal not really a big deal unless the Officer only comes by at dinner time, every time to inspect.

Last year some honest people I thought I knew were arrested and jailed for interstate transport, plus, possession of endangered species, possession on indigenous species, and possession of venomous reptiles without a permit. I believe the total number of honest people caught was like 15.

This year a 57 year old male was traveling east bound in our county, with a short in his tail lights. This honest person was stopped. I was contacted to come and ID some reptiles found in his van prior to DNR’s arrival. This well dressed man was only trying to get back home to PA after purchasing some snakes in KY. This trip didn’t go the way he wanted it to. I was drooling over a couple of pairs of Copper heads he had. In total 25 snakes were confiscated. The guy was charged up the wahzoo….And I didn’t get to keep the snakes, Damn….

Do honest people make mistakes, yes they do. Is red tape permits and money a factor, I believe it is. Can we call some one idiot that may not have the money go through the entire BS red tape trying to make his child hood dream come true. No.

Is this entire thread good….Yes? At least we are still open to voice opinions without monetary cost. I just hope everyone sees this as just good debate.

Dann

Absolutley! Very good debate. I guess it's in the air, what with all the political crapola going on right now. Is anyone else about sick of it? I'll just be glad when the elections are all over. LoL!
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".