Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just woundering if anyone could tell me the differences between Hypo's,leucistic's, and Translucents? As well as the part their genetics play in breeding.
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2.1.1 Bearded Dragon (Ember,Sunshine,Misspiggy,Spyro)
2.2 Leopard Geckos
(Patternless,Blizzard,TremplerAlbino,Hypo Tangerine)
0.1 Bibron Gecko
2 Green Tree Frogs
0.1 Brown Anole
1 Austrailian Shepard (Griz)
3 Cats (Twilight,Hadies,Pietree)
2 Ferrets (Nibbles,Red)

Here is my take on the whole thing.

Hypomelanistic is a dominant trait basically meaning that if you breed a hypomelanistic dragon to a normal dragon you will get a bunch of dragons that are on a continuum from light to dark with the majority showing lighter pigment then the normal parent. A Snow dragon is a really white Hypomelanistic dragon. A hypopastel dragon is a hypomelanistic dragon with clear nails separate from the hypomalanistic trait. The clear nail trait is a recessive trait. Lastly the "Leucistic" trait is kind of a debate. Some breeders believe that Leucistic dragons are really white hypopastels. Other breeders believe that Leucistic dragons carry a recessive trait that is all together different from the Hypomelanistic trait. As far as the Translucent trait I will let Paul Morlock explain that.

The translucent dragons are a form of albinism. They are missing white or have a reduction in white. I did some reasearch and to my knowledge there are no other cases of animals missing white. The irridiphores are responsible for makeing this color so technically these animals are Hypoirristic. The white is the base skin color so when you remove it the skin is transparent. The skin color in dragons is layered,white being the base,red yellow or orange next and then black on top of that. It seems that as the animals grow they tend to lose the translucence because the red,yellow,and oranges cover most of the body. The animals you have seen posted previously were produced by Sandfire Dragon Ranch. The original animals were purchased from overseas 2 years ago. The group was split in half, half bred to our Sandfire line and half to our pastel line. The resulting hets were then bred to produce the animals you've been seeing. As of now we still have not bred trans to trans. The black eyes do not seem to be directly related to the translucent mutation,they just happend to pop up at the same time. The hypo translucents I have posted are a completely different bloodline produced by myself 2 years ago. These animals are interesting because they are missing 2 out of the 3 skin colors, one step away from true albino.
"almost albino" Paul Morlock 2003

-Randy
NEW SITE COMING SOON!!
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

My take on it..

Hypomelanistic is recessive. Hypomelanistic dragons hypopastels/leucisitics the dragons with the clear nails. A genetic mutation.. The mutation is in place that lessens, or they lack the ability to produce dark pigments (clear nails).. Cross a hypopastel to a normal you get hets no hypo's.. Some may be light, some may be dark or normal which would be a normal outcome when crossing a very light dragon to a colored or normal non hypomelanistic dragon.. Take these normal looking hets and breed those to other hets or hypomelanistic dragon, and you will get clear nailed hypomelanistic dragons in the outcome.

My take (Confusion)

Snows/light dragons without the clear nails. Persoanlly I beleive these were called hypo's before the clear nailed hypopastels and leucistics ever hit the market.. In my opinion selectively bred light dragons with no pigment mutation at all. No genetic mutation is in place that lessens the amount of pigment they CAN produce. Cross a light dragon with a normal dragon and exactly, you get a conundrum of colors. No mutation in place in my opinion as all these dragons have the ability to produce the same amount of dark pigment as a normal non hypomelanistic dragon can... cross the light offspring "selectively breed" them and yes you can produce mostly light dragons just as you could produce mostly dark if you bred the darker offspring... No mutations not hypomelanistic IMO.

And well what Paul Typed back when he explained the translucent is as good an explanation as I ever could have thought of.....
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

Cali last year? Those guys had a bunch didn't they? I think you named her Candy was it? How is she doing now? Should be getting close to breedable age eh?

Would love to see a pic if you have one. SHe was a pretty lil gal back then and I'm sure adult color is much better.

Later,
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

Sure did get a female hypopastel last year.. Her name was Reaya though named after Rea (Reiko) the friend who picked her out for me. Candy is my full body orange female that was bred to Foster this season.. But yeah Reaya is no baby anymore, and is quite the beauty. She is one of my first choices for next season as far as the females go to breed. I have quite a few hypopastels, and hets to work with.. Going to maybe add in the fresh import to freshen up the genes/blood a bit next season. No pastel X pastel breeding for me. Maybe eventually I'll cross the holdback hets I keep from the different lines.. We'll see. We plan and the big man up stairs laughs.. Nothing is written in stone when it comes to live animals, and especially with the pastel males and their wannabe beards LOL.. Hope I don't have to break out the black Sharpie LOL I've been working on getting them down for brumation, and she's sleeping now, but tomorrow when she's up I'll share a pic or two.. She developed nicely with the nice pastel yellows, orange highlights, and lavender hues.. A real beauty I think, but I kinda love my Pastels.. One of my favs that's for sure..
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

Cool. I don't know why I find the genetic morphs so interesting. I suppose it just fascinates me to think that a defect could cause an animal to be more beautiful than it is normally.

What ever happened to Reiko anyways haven't seen her around for quite some time. That monster red dragon she has is gorgeous.

Later,
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

I really depends on who you talk too. The Dachius have switched over to only describing Hypopastels with clear nails as Hypopmelanistic but Kevin at Dragons Den says that Hypomelanistic is a dominant trait used for basically just a light dragon. IMO As far as hypomelanistic dragons go, hypomelanistic has been used to describe dragons for a long time in the general market that are just light dragons, but in the advent of Hypopastels and/or Leucistics which is a recessive trait most people would agree that what was deemed as hypomelanistic dragons are just selectively bred light dragons. What was once called hypomelanistic is hard to say whether it is a trait or not b/c there are so many more variables then just whether it is recessive or dominant. Many factors can affect whether a trait is expressed. But one thing is true is that it is definitely not the same gene that is involved in the Hypopastel and/or Leucistic trait.

Just my take on it!!

-Randy
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

I agree with you.. I just feel the use of the word hypo got used before they even existed. Basically for light selectively bred dragons.. I also saw a huge increase when people started seeing hypo pastels on the forums, and in ads selling for $400 plus then saying mine looks similar, so it must be hypo, not knowing the genetics or the true mutation the hypomelanistic had.

My opinion on leucistic is that it's nothing more then a hypo snow... JMO
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

If the leusistic was a "hypo/snow" then whewn it was bred to a hypo-pastel there would have been NO clear nailed animals produced. There were! SO... It has been proven that these genes are the same.

An example would be the T and T- albino boas. When you breed these traits together you double het for both traits. Niether trait would manifest in the F1 offspring as they are both recessive. If the leusistics were Hypo/Snows thier wouldn't be het for leusistics available. Hypo/Snows pass on their genetics to the next generation. It takes two unless bred to like animals for the hypo-pastel or leusistic is bred to another animal that is het or displays the trait.

You guys should really read that book. It's great.

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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

No Rob.. I personally don't believe a snow is a hypomelanistic dragon period... Dark nails not hypo in my book, nothing more then a selectively bred light dragon. Just like they selectively bred for yellows, oranges, reds, the snow is white nothing more. Hereditary traits no hypomelanism mutation involved IMO.. When I say hypo snow I mean a clear nailed snow dragon.. A snow dragon with the true hypomelanistic mutation bred in would be a white dragon with clear nails very much like what we see called and marketed as "leucistics".. Now that is what I'm saying.... And yes they all would have clear nails just like the parents would have them too. It would be a hypomelanistic X hypomelanistic breeding.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

I understand completely what you are saying but if you read the book and the chapter on chromatophore biology you would see what I am talking about. If there are two seperate layers of skin with melanophores that are not dependant on oneanother in any way it makes sense that there could be a seperate or incomplete form of hypomelanism just as there are two forms of albinism. And if you had done some research on the hypo/snow line you would also know that Kevin actually produced a few hypo/snows that had several clear nails. IT IS a seperate form of hypomelanism. And hypomelanism is a form of albinism.

By selectively breeding the hypo snow line you could develope a whiter dragon or a line that breeds the color in and washes it out to give these dragons a faded look, or just drop the black and leave great color like the Sundial "coral line".

That is the great thing about selectively breeding a codom or dominate gene. Just like with the pastel ball pythons. Some are brighter and some are darker but they all stand out. It depends on how this particular gene effects the particular animal and how it is passed on to the next generation. That is why it has taken several years and ALOT of sweat to produce some of these hypo lines that are out there. I don't think that people realize the amount of relentless work it takes to make this gene work for them. Some of these breeders who have been doing this for a long time have really done well with it.

That's what I'm saying. You should check out the book by H. Bernard Bechtel called Reptile and Amphibian Variants. It will really open your eyes to genetic mutations such as hypomelanism.

Later,
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

Actually read the book already. Understand what your saying, but do not think that the snow dragons are anything more then what I stated above.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

I don't think we should rename the leusistic dragon a hypo snow because people who haven't been around that long could become confused and in a couple years people coming in might actually buy a leusistic and a "hypo/snow" and breed them and there you have it.... inbred babies and that would begin to destroy what everyone has been trying to avoid and correct for several years now. Just my opinion.
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

Have you lost your mind? Did I say anything about renaming anything? Anywhere? What are you talking about? I said in my opinion they are nothing more then hypomelanistic snow dragons.

Opinionopinion= last time I remembered meant A belief or conclusion held with confidence, but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

Why yes I did lose my mind. Thank you for asking. I had a complete nervous breakdown about 8-10 weeks ago but am feeling much better now. The medication seems to be helping some.

Aside from that just saying something like that about the hypo snow thing could be very misleading and could get misconstrued into something else. That's all I was trying to say. No need to get personal Matt. I was just trying to state my opinion about what you said. I'm not trying to attack you. Just share what I've learned over the past few months.
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

Yeah you right Rob.. Sorry. Seems these days you can get a degree in some colleges with a few months research, and a good book

Sorry bout that thing a few months back. I'd be a bit upset about that too. Hope you fixed that email glitch you had though.. I was a bit taken back by that
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

Hypomelanism is a trait where the melanaphores are defective and don't work properly or at all. It is a form of albinism. selectively bred animals that were bred for lighter color would be nothing more than an inherited trait such as red, yellow, or orange. It has nothing to do witrh selective breeding. It is a genetic defect that is recognized by reduced amounts of black pigment or lack of.

If you read the book Reptile and Amphibian Variants by Bechtel, chapter 4 explains chromatophore biology and the role that melanin plays in the production of color and pattern in the dermis. If there was no form of hypomelanism present in the hypo/snow line they would have normal patterning and their color wouldn't get washed out or fade completely.
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

Where does the clear nail thing fit in?...I only see you refering to skin color and biology of the pigment cells, but what is the realtion between skin- and nailcolor in your opinion?

Your saying that Snow is a degree of Hypomelanism.
In my opinion there is a difference between not being able to produce pigment and the absence and/or dominance of certain piment cells.
I believe that most snow dragons aren't hypomelanistic at all, but a cause of selective breeding with light colored dragons, that are just lighter.
In my opinion, the only true hypomelanistics are clear nailed, maybe there are dragons that have a degree of hypomelanism, but does that make them hypo's??????????, the hetero and homo pairings wouldn't work with these dragons.
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>>The hypo snow trait is a form of hypomelanism. I'm not sure if it's dominate or co-dominate though. Dominat would mean that every beardie would have it if an anmimal pocessing the hypo/snow trai was bred out to a line that had no hypo snow and all of the babies posessed the hypo/snow trait. codom would only produce about half of the clutch showing same. But if two hypo/snows were bred together and codom all the animals would posess the trait and (if it works the same in beardies) I would say that the Snow dragons that were produced from this type breeding wouldbe the Dominate form of the trait. That question would have to be answered by somone other than me.

Since the skin has two layers, dermal and epidermal, and each has melanophores that operate independantly of one another we have two seperate forms of hypomelanism.

What is happening with the hypo/snow trait is the genetic defect is in the dermal or outer layer of skin. Since melanin aids in the production of dermal color and pattern that is why you see patternless hypos, hypos with a washed out look to them, colorless or "snow" or tannish animals, and some that just have no black or brown dermal color leaving an awesome color to the dragon becvause it only dropped the black and brown color of melanin. This is why hypo/snows also can darken at times, the epideraml melanophores are functional.

In the hypo-pastel trait the epideraml melanophores are disfunctional. This trait is recessive. Thinking about this this morning the hypo- pastel trait doesn't really show black anywhere I don't think. This may be the purest form of hypomelanism. Since the epidermal melanaphores are disfunctional that is why you don't see them darken, in some cases males have a hardf time getting the ladies attention due to the inability of the beard to get black. That is alos why thier nails are clear they are incapable of producing melanin epideramlly to pass to the ares it's normally in. There are retaining vessels in the epidermis with tubes traveling to just under the dermis used to transport the melanin when they would normally turn blacker.

As for the leusistic trait, it has been proven that it is a whiter form of hypo-pastel trait because the two traits were bred together and produced clear nailed hypo-pastel beardies. A true leusistic dragon would be unable to show any color at all and thier has also been color bred into the leusistic animals.

Just to make what I have said VERY CLEAR in no way am I attacking anyone in this post. TYhe leusistic dragons were imported as such and sold as such. I don't believe that anyone has misrepresented any of thier animals, just some mistaken identity. Breeding the dragons proved out theories of other breeders. That's the science of it.

If you want to learn more as this is a brief overview check out a book called Reptile and Amphibian variants by H. Bernard Bechtell. GREAT reading!

Later,
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

I was just curious from your post, If you think it's possible to make an albino bearded dragon?

I'm not the one saying above.. But there are alreay albino bearies.. I hear quite a few are now over 6 months of age an thriving... Not in the USA yet though... Bummer
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

I know that they have come out naturally but I was wondering if you could make an albino by mixing different morphs that have the "albino" trait?

Yes I guy hatched them out in Austrailia. If you look on Dachiu's website you can find them or the original article was posted in Reptile rooms. Several albinos have been hatched out but the ones that this guy hatched are still thriving. They came from two yellow parents.
-Randy
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

I must sound like a broken record and I apologize for this but was the guy actually trying to make albino's? Or was he just lucky and happened to produce them. So my question still stands if you can actually improve your chances by mixing traits to make an albino or must it be a billion in one chance no matter what.

Hi
as some people know am dutch.
r there people who know where i could buy some pastel hypomelanistic in europe r the netherlands uk ???
the picture is from a pastel hypomelanistic WONKA but i cant find a male here
i have crossed her with mellow yellow sandfre gold ,and it produced very nice babies.
but i want clear nails in my babies so i need a male pastel .
thx
byeeeeee

http://www.dragoncave.nl/

I know that reptifit got hold of 2 pastel dragons from SDR, maybe they will breed them next year.
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