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for Mark and Sam and others

kap10cavy Oct 02, 2004 04:07 PM

My question has to do with parasites in monitors.
I believe most parasites can be dealt with by using proper husbandry. I have been having a discussion with a friend of mine about this subject. He seems to believe some parasites are actually beneficial to digesting. I was wondering if you can expand on this subject.
Please don't say "look at the article in so and so magazine"
I am and I am sure others would like a basic answer to the question of parasites. Basic means use words we can understand without a dictionary. And remember, a lot of new keepers lurk here looking for information. I was a lurker for a long time and sometimes it can get confusing. So be gentle and help out.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Replies (6)

mequinn Oct 02, 2004 04:57 PM

Hello Scott,

I speak english, yes...but when dealing with biological entities, the terminology must be applied where it is. What is wrong with using a dictionary? Don't you like to learn new words?

Parasites: I am not sure which parasites you are referring to: ticks (aponomma, amblyomma species in Africa, Asia, Indonesia); Round and flat Worms: tape worms (cestoda), pin worms (tiania tiania), Tongue worms (Sambonia sp.); Protozoans: amoebiases.

All of these organisms can/will impare a Host Varanus when the Host is weakened or impared itself; overpopulation of the parasites can also kill the Host, as in 1965 when Dr. Young found many V. albigularis and V. niloticus dead of suffocation from the hundreds of ticks parasitizing these African varanids (Young, 1965).

I don't know much about these organisms benefitting the Host animals much - ticks give varanus malaria-like disease (Haemogregarine parasites), pass on plague-like bacteria and Q-fever; tape & round worms overpopulate the gut and respiratory systems, and sambonia tongue worms produce a mucus like fluid while blood sucking the Varanus in their respiratory tracts and mouths...= nasty animals!

cheers,
mbayless

odatriad Oct 02, 2004 04:59 PM

I believe that you are confusing what the word parasite means. Parasitism is a relationship between two organisms, where one benefits off the other, while while harmfully affecting the other organism(host)in the process. So, by asking if some parasites are beneficial, I would have to say no.

However, there are many different types of bacteria that are beneficial to a monitor, as well as us people. Perhaps there may even be some types of unicellular organisms, or possibly even nematodes/cestodes which might also play an important part in digestion.

I would think that you are asking if there are any mutualistic organisms that help a monitor digest. Where the monitor is benefitting from the aid in digestion, and the organism is getting a free meal.

I am curious to whether or not there are some organisms that help out as well... I hope someone sheds some light on this; Great question. Cheers,

bob
The Odatriad

kap10cavy Oct 02, 2004 05:06 PM

NP
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

FR Oct 02, 2004 05:30 PM

I agree with you to a point, I try to allow the monitors to overpower parasites. But parasites covers lots of different creatures.

If the parasites cause delerious effects, that is, they are negatively effecting your monitor, they take the monitor to a vet and have them taken care of.

I do not believe in treating animals for no reason. For me, so far, so good. Buts please keep in mind, its a gamble either way. Sometimes the treatment is worse then the malady. Sometimes the malady does need to be treated. Good luck FR

amaxim Oct 02, 2004 05:36 PM

I'm not an expert in monitors in anyway, shape or form. I do, however, like to read, study and make four out of two plus two. Monitors, like most living things (multicelled) have an immune system designed to fight off the bad things in life. Parasites are the bad things.

There is a whole slew of junk in each creature designed to handle different internal threats, such as in humans we have white blood cells for bacterial organisms, the lymph nodes to collect, hold and kill some of the more nasty infections, and a few other things I have no understanding of except I am glad they work in me (t-cells, antibodies, etc). I am going to infer that monitors have something very similiar built in (I make this inferrence because if they didn't they would not have survived for upteen millions of years, that simple).

When a creatures immune system is worn down from fighting something (this could be as simple as a bad piece of meat in a monitor to a new ear piercing in a human), then some other parasite has the opportunity to wreak tons of havok on the poor kritter (sort of like if all the firemen in a town are working on one blazing building, the bulding that catches fire across town is going to do a ton of damage). While the immune system is away, the parasites will play. Keeping your monitor healthy and stress free helps maintain a proper immune system, and thus the monitor's body will be able to fight off a good plethora (sorry, had to have one good word) of infections and parasites.

Something else a monitor (or any lizard) has at its disposal to fight off parasites which mammals don't is high heat. When an infection occures in a mammal, the body temperature is raised in an attempt to kill off the infection. Most virus and bacteria can not survive in higher temperatures (the HIV retrovirus dies after being exposed to 107 F temps for 30 minutes). Only mammals can not handle too high of temps (people tend to die after having a 107 F temp for 30 minutes), monitors on the other hand can handle the higher temperatures. This is a huge help in fighting most parasites (how many posts have been written and followed pertaining to giving a monitor higher temps in response to a sneezing monitor? It works).

Now about helpful bacteria. There are naturally occuring bacteria in the digestive tracks of any living thing (that has a digestive track). These bacteria help to break down food matter AND more importantly to extract water which gets absorbed into the body (large intestine area). The bad part is if this bacteria gets into someplace it does not belong or if the immune system is too weak, this same bacteria that is needed to digest properly now becomes a hostile parasite.

All that being said, I am a firm believer in safe then sorry. A parasite in a monitor might be controlled while there are no problems with the monitor by proper husbandry. But now hurricane Charlie, Frances, Ivan and Jeanne knock out your power, your monitor can not get the proper temps (high or low), has to go a week without food (no high temps for digestion) and is just a ball of stress. That same parasite that was being controlled internally by the monitor now has the opportunity to become a huge problem. On the same point, over treatment of any parasite with meds makes can make super-parasites and that would not be good either.

In all things there is moderation. To paraphrase from Frank, your monitor will tell you when something is wrong, you just have to listen.
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-Andrew

SamSweet Oct 03, 2004 08:00 PM

Jeez, a fella goes out of town for a day or two, and lookit all this stuff! OK, here goes:

"Parasites" and "simple decisions" don't belong in the same sentence. #1. Often, you don't know what the animal has, if it has anything at all. #2. An animal may be stressed or sick from a variety of causes -- just sometimes the parasites are the cause, but always they are capitalizing on an animal with reduced physiological defenses. New imports are often in bad shape for many reasons including parasites. #3. The treatments can be hard on the animal, and may put an already stressed new captive over the edge. Vets don't always know what they're doing, either, so be careful.

No one here is making a critical distinction -- between directly transmitted and indirectly transmitted parasites. Parasites that can be directly transmitted are able to increase in number within an infected animal, and to infect other animals in your collection. These are the 'bad guys' that can really cause a world of hurt. Almost all single-celled parasites (amoebas, bacteria, ciliates, flagellates, Cryptosporidium) that are not carried in the blood are directly transmitted, as are tapeworms and many nematodes. Some infective stage is shed by your monitor, and can be easily picked up by cagemates, or work its way throughout your collection on cage and handling equipment, your hands, crickets crawling between cages, etc.

Indirectly-transmitted parasites require either a vector or one or more intermediate hosts (other species in which different life-history stages of the parasite must live before they can infect another monitor). These include blood-borne parasites such as fliarial worms, malaria, hemogregarines, etc., and larger critters such as flukes, pentastomids, and a bunch of less common things. With these, the monitor has all the parasites it's going to have when you acquire it, it won't get any more unless you feed it prey items (like frogs) that are intermediate hosts. This isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card, sadly, because the new import you get might have gotten a huge dose of immature stages while awaiting export, and could arrive with that parasite load just ramping up to high levels.

What to do? Judgment call! If you have a competent vet, it does no harm to take a couple of fecal samples in, maybe 2 weeks apart, to see what the animal might have. A single fecal isn't definitive, unfortunately, because some of these things go in waves. Most vets aren't very good at identifying blood-borne parasites, and of course you'll not see these in a fecal sample, either.

Once you have an idea what the animal might have, only then is it time to consider treatment. Obviously, if the animal has some indirectly-transmitted parasite in low numbers, most people would opt to simply take good care of the monitor and assume that the parasite will clear itself in time. Directly-transmitted parasites are more worrisome -- for example, if your monitor has crypto, there is no effective treatment, and it poses an immediate and very serious threat to all of your other animals. Other protozoans? Hard to say -- I'd advise a cautious approach, wait and watch, while making as sure as you can that you have effective quarantine procedures. Sometimes monitors do seem to shed or at least control these 'bugs', but the danger is that they are always there, getting spread to other cages, and just biding their time until the infected animals happen to have some stress, such as cycling, that sets them back a bit.

People who are serious about having healthy animals always have a strict quarantine period before any new acquisition is put in a position to spread its 'bugs' around. Same thing, if you are at a show or visiting a friend, regard every animal whose history you do not know as *infected* with something that you could bring home. A couple of times a year we have sad stories on these forums, of the form "all my monitors died". I'm not interested in scaring people, but at the same time I see an awful lot of risky behavior described. "Here's Godzilla with my buddy's iguana"; "Just got my new Nile, tossed him in with Pharaoh and they like each other, woot". Most of the time we are just plain lucky, but don't take foolish risks.

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