Reptile & Amphibian Forums

last night i was cleaning my a. chlorechis cage, it is the only hot i keep in the house, it is in a large planted terrarium and is my pride and joy. my wife was with me, since i prefer to have another person there, just in case.
usually i just get him out, pop him in a holding box and clean the cage, no problem. well, there just happens to be a large ficus tree next to the cage, and it seemed like a perfect kodak moment, so i popped him in there and snapped away.
i took care of the cage, and went to put him back.
now, i always work with my arboreals with two hooks, but i used one of the hooks in another room and left it there, and didn't want to leave my wife unattended with my snake so i decided to use the hook&tail method. i've done it before on my large elapids and my rattlers and copperheads, but never quite felt safe doing it with short, snappy arboreals.
i hooked him right behind the head, and grabbed his tail. he just went along with it, barely even moving.
i was carrying him over to the cage, and all of a sudden "wham!" right for my left hand the little bugger went.
now, i don't know how i managed but i grabbed him right behind the head. my wife just looked at me and said "Are you okay? did he get you?" to which i just said naw, i'm okay he just missed me.
I put him back in the cage, and looked down at my hand.
My left index finger was blleding right between the 1st and 2nd knuckle, just a tiny scratch, barely 1/8th of an inch long.
The blood was just slowly trickling.
At that point i started getting a little shaky, so I sat down and decided to have a cigarette. before i was done, the finger was swollen to twice the normal size, and the swelling was spreading into my hand. It also started itching like mad.
Finally i got up and washed my hands and tried to disinfect the wound a bit. After about 4 hours the swelling started to subside, but it didn't stop bleeding until early this afternoon.
I think i'm gonna make it.
But i'm 100% sure i'll never do something stupid like that again.
I've kept hots for 20 years now, and never once let my guard down. 1st time it happens, and i damn near get tagged.
lesson learned, huh guys?
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

Dont realy know how to reply to this, but maybe you should rethink keeping venomous animals.....

I don't know about the re-think. I'd say lesson learned & glad it was an easy one. No harm, no foul. Lesson you learned: Arboreal snakes, be they elapids or viperids do not hook & tail safely.

On the lighter side, if you'd just give up the cancer sticks, you'd be in fine shape. BTW, I used them from 1956 to 1982.

~~Greg~~

You are right, it only takes that one moment of very poor judgement to put your life in danger. I think most of us who keep hots could probably think of one occasion where we did something fairly stupid that could have led to a tragedy. Sounds like you learned from this incident.....and don't ever tail arboreals!! You just found out how difficult they are and how dangerous this practice is.

On a sidenote, I don't subscribe to the saying that says: "there's only two kinds of venomous keepers; those who have been bit and those who will get bit"...so far, I am none of the above and expect it to stay that way (I pray a lot!).

Rob Carmichael, Curator of the Wildlife Discovery Center

Anton:

WOW!! Thanks for sharing that very near disaster. I would actually say you did get "tagged" but only slightly envenomated. I don't keep aborials for just the reasons you described. They are just too fast & agile for my taste. Of course, all hots are very unpredictable too.

More Good Luck to you,

Al

it's one of the reasons I never tail snakes, two hooks is much safer. I think tree vipers are one of the most unpredictable and least respected snakes out there, and as Al said, lightning fast. I had an eyelash viper shoot nearly it's whole length at me, it was seriously awakening experience, and at the time, I didn't take hots for granted in the first place. Any snake can have a bad day, or could just be smelling something that was on your hand, did you just get done feeding another snake?
Be safe.

... wash my hands in between snakes/cages. not so much for the scent thing, but i'm just paranoid if one of my babies had something the rest could catch it.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

Anton doesn't sound to be like a bad venomous keeper to me; however, he was extremely lucky in this situation. I just want to make sure that no one reads this post and does the same thing he did after a bite from the same or similar species. His finger may have only slightly swelled and bled for a few hours, but you never know when you either A.) will get a dose that is potentially lethal, or B.) go into anaphylactic shock and die very quickly from even a fairly 'insignificant' amount of venom.

So, to sum it up, if you're bitten by a venomous animal and notice obvious symptoms that you've been envenomated, please please please go to the hospital and get checked out, even if the bite doesn't seem very bad. You never know when things can go from okay to horrible.
-Chance
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Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com

Chance is right of course but I want to add something. In the future you just may want some OTC beneydrl and maybe an "Epipen" handy. You could have been sensitized my this minor encounter with this snake. Anaphylactic shock kills faster than most venomous snakebites.

Just want to throw this out for discusson purposes: Keep in mind I agree 100% with Chance and his accessment of the situation. With that said:

Since no effective antivenom exsists for Atheris why alarm the world with a minor envenomation and go to the Hospital? Chances are they will just plunk you in bed take vitals and keep track of your blood chemistry.

BTW I saw on one of Jeff Corwins shows him comming very close to a good hit from a wild Eyelash Viper he was "tailing"

Al

very good arguments guys, and i'd like to address them:
1. i did not go to the hostipal because my wife happens to be a paramedic, and a very good one at that. she was present in the room, and if things would have turned serious, she could have handled it.
2. i refuse to go to any hospital in this country. i am originally from Croatia, and the levels of health care are immensely different. the few times i was unlucky enough to visit an e.r. here were extremely dissapointing.
3. as i said above, with my wife being an emt and our house is well stocked with all manner of first aid goodies
4. i fully agree with the above post, as far as i know there is no a/v for atheris species currently being made, so all they would've done at the hospital would be to shoot me up full of black widow a/v and alerted the toledo zoo (what a bunch of professionals they are) and the local papers. i love all of my snakes, and with as stupid as most of law enforcement is, i would've lost my entire collection, or the last 20 yrs of my life.
btw, thanks to all you guys who have offered advice, it is well taken.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

That an EMT from your country is qualified to handle an envenomation from an African snake that has caused fatalities and there is no antivenin for, but a doctor is not???? I think my first post was well stated.....

Also you are saying that you are keeping venomous animals in a place where they are not allowed???? I can not see any other reason why they would take away you collection if you are bitten..... If god forbid I am careless enough to put my body within strike range of my snakes and get bitten, my collection will not be taken away from me...... Again I think my first post was well stated.....

Am I the only one that sees something not right here..... I am also starting to question how true this story actually is..... I just cant put this together with the timing and the amount of swelling in the time it took to smoke a cig..... I mean the hand swelled out to more than two times its normal sized in that short of time and it was not a serious envenomation???? And the swelling was almost gone in how many hours???? Something isnt right..... Was there any necrosis???? Atheris venom is a pretty necrotic venom.....

Ummm he said his FINGER swelled to twice the normal size and thats not a lot of swelling compared to a whole hand. Also he said in 4 hours it "started to subside". I've been scratched by my iguana and had swelling that lasted a few hours and looked bad. A scratch could look nasty without ANY envenomation. What more would a doctor do besides look for signs of any reaction which he would probably assign an intern or an RN to look for anyway. I'm sure his wife is fully competent as an EMT which has many more training hours involved than does a paramedic. I'm sure that at any sign of anaphylactic shock or necrosis he would have gone to an ER. But maybe, just maybe, because he was smart enough to know the warning signs and treatment options before handling this snake, he was saved unnecessary medical bills and saved us the unnecessary bad publicity that you would have been upset about later. Lets thank him for sharing and remember that he didn't share a story expecting to be judged, only to warn you to remember to be safe. So lets all say thanks and leave it at that.
Sera
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5.7 ball pythons (7 normal, 3 het albino, 2 het axanthic)
1.2 king snakes (1 chocolate, 2 albino)
1.1 columbian red tail boas
1.1 pueblan milksnakes
2.2 african house snakes
2.1 striped albino gophers
1.0 watersnake
1.2 burmese pythons (1 albino, 2 hets)
2.1 pygmy rattlesnakes
1.1 dumeril's boas
3.3 corns (miami, okatee, snow, caramel, 2 creamsicle)
1.1 jungle corns
0.2 ferrets
0.2 degus
0.1 salcotta tortoise
1.2 mice
1.1 rats
0.0.1 human on the way

I would just add that not only is she an EMT, but an EMT married to a hot keeper, so I would have no trouble believing that she knows more about handling a venomous bite than the local doctors who wouldn't know the difference between a coral snake and copperhead, let alone know anything about african snakes...

First Chance's statements were right on the button. Second Toledo zoo has a top notch group of keepers. Who are you to say bad about them you are the one who was bitten. Black widow av for a venomous snakebite get real. Someone posted a story on venomousreptile.com about them using Black widow av for a atrox bite but the facts of that bite don't add up and if they gave the person the wrong av then the person would get a big cash settlement from the lawsuit.
EMT or Paramedic neither can treat organ failure or see it coming without blood tests. There are some of the best snakebite doctors in the world right here in the USA.
If you are keeping the animals legally they cannt take them from you.

Jim Harrison

I am glad atleast two people see my point.....

okay, my opinions about toledo zoo's keepers come from actually talking with them. they might be the best keepers in the world, but with their attitude they come across as having way overblown egos.
the statement about black widow a/v came from 4 different hospitals in the area, which i contacted as soon as we moved here to see if there are any qualified physicians to treat envenomations.
yes, i agree emt's cannot treat organ failure, but that is not what i said. an emt is fully trained to recognize if there is some kind of problem, and will get me to a hospital if needed.
i am fully aware that there are very good doctors in the u.s., unfortunately, they are not in my area.
okay, and since everyone seemed to miss this one significant point: i did NOT get bitten, i got scratched. i did NOT believe i was in any serious danger at the time.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

First,you were envenomated. Swelling in the hand is a reaction. Any EMT or paramedic should know to take a victim to a hospital.
I have seen hundreds of envenomations and reviewed over a thousand. A bite is a bite. You wrote about it and now after calling all medical people in your area bad you change what happened. Read what you wrote.
It is not up to the hospital but the keeper to have information about there snake/venom and if there is AV the keeper should have it. In this case there is no AV for this species but treatment has been done with SAIMR
polyvalent and Echis in the past with some success. All venoms are dangerous. If you have other venomous that have AV do you keep it on hand or are you going to take the zoo's.
Ohio does not have a venomous law at this time but many cities (Columbus,Dayton and several others) do have laws . If you live in Toledo you might check your laws there.
Poison Control has contact numbers for doctors that treat snakebites. All hospitals can call them.

Jim Harrison

i did not call *all* medical people in my area "bad", i did not change anything. my wife asked me several times if i wanted to go to the e.r., i declined, because i did not feel it was threatening enough to warrant medical expenses and the publicity. it might have been a bad judgement on my part, but something tells me that had i gone and had you guys read about the incident in the papers, you would've been the first one on here to complain about how it will ruin the hobby and so on.
i do keep a/v on hand for most of my collection, as it mostly consists of north american crotalids, a few elapids and some viperids (mostly arboreals). the only ones i don't have covered is any of the atheris species, because as stated before, there currently is none (except for the echis a/v, and as i'm not 100% sure it would work, i do not stock it).
i would never depend on any zoo's stock, because that is asking another person to give up their life for you.
look, i understand you've seen envenomations of all kinds, and are very familiar with them(or so you've stated), but that does not make you an expert on all envenomations, as different people react differently to different stimuli.
i am aware that city and county laws vary on venomous reptiles, i knew the local laws before i ever moved here. i like to consider my husbandry techniques professional, but everybody makes mistakes.
i made mine a few nights ago, when i tried to save some time and not get my other hook. are you trying to tell me that you have not once made a mistake in your career as a keeper?
i apologize if my original or any subsequent posts offended you, and i consider this conversation over, as it seems to me we'll never see eye to eye on this matter, and all this going back and forth is really a waste of time.
once again, no offense taken and i hope none given.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

Not to agree with Jim on everything, but any envenomation is serious enough to seek medical help. I will not go into further detail, as you should know it.
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Chad Bachman

Anton,
Your right about one thing we will not agree. First if you had died at home it would have been worse media.
You seem to be in denile that you were bitten but had swelling and other reactions.
As far as my statements on snakebite . They are all true . I am the director of the Kentucky Reptile Zoo one of the largest venom production labs in the world. I provide venom for Crofab and other medical uses from over 50 plus species. I am called on often to help treat exotic bites. I have seen Atheris envenomations before some not bad and others with renal failure.
I did not post until you started the Black widow, bad medical care in the USA and putting down the Toledo zoo staff stuff.
The blame for your bite and any problems that follow our yours.
I am glad you have AV alot of people don't or say they do. With exotic AV it is easy to contact the FDA and find out who is permitted to have AV.
Kids read this forum and as adults (experts?) we need to show some common sense. Don't post if bitten and you decide to ride it out it gives the wrong idea to kids. This is not about not making mistakes when working animals it is about getting medical care when needed.

Jim Harrison

jim, i know of you, i have been told you are very good at what you do, and that i respect.
i don't belive i was bitten, because had i been bitten, there would have been a puncture wound. the fang barely broke the skin, and all i got out of it was a scratch(lucky me). looking at it today, it is almost fully healed, just a minor scab.
i understand i was lucky, as a full blown envenomation could've made my day a lot worse.
let me ask you, how would you have reacted if you were in the same exact situation? and please be honest, i have had just about enough of that pc crap everybody seems to stick with on these boards. how would you have felt if instead of sitting down to smoke i had grabbed up my camera again and started taking pictures of my finger and wrote down the timeline? i'm pretty sure you know how many books there are out there written by "herpetologists" that contain journals and timelines of their own snakebites.
as far as toledo zoo goes, i like the zoo, i know what it has done to further captive breeding efforts, but the keepers they have now are anything but professional. last time i was there(i don't bother going anymore, the clev. and columbus zoos are much better) they had just gotten a new boa constrictor in. it was about 6' long. they brought it out in a wooden crate, and there were plenty of visitors around. after about 15 mins of grandstanding, and the "this is the most dangerous snake in the world" crap, they took it out, and proceeded to walk around, even sticking it in some kids' faces. that kind of behavior does not say professional to me. if you think that's what dedicated zoo keepers are supposed to do, then i stand corrected.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

I would go to the hospital. If any fang touchs and breaks my skin I look for signs of envenomation like pain and swelling . If any of these symptoms appear I go to the hospital. I can not know what is going on inside my body without blood tests.
I go to the hospital before symptoms if an elapid breaks my skin.
I have seen rapid onset of symptoms from neurotoxic venom but also long delays.
All snakebites should be observed at a hospital.

Jim Harrison

Thanks for sharing your story, it is indeed a good reminder how important every minor decision actually is. I agree with both sides of the arguement. Although nervous, you must have felt pretty safe with your EMT wife with you, and also justified is the position to be safer than sorry and go the the hosp no matter what. I'm not sure what I would have done in your position. Just a stick in the mud though,.. how can it be so bad to sit and wait it out with such minor symptoms when so many herp keepers practice self-venomization. (not saying that I agree with this )

minor envenomation, take a coral snake bite for example, symptoms may take hours to appear. Just something to think about.

ok, first of all, calm down...
my wife is not from my country, she is from the u.s. even though that is not relevant here. i never stated she is more qualified than a doctor to treat anything, although she is probably more familiar with snakes than most doctors.
second, venomous reptiles are perfectly legal where i live (state of ohio), the only ones not alowed are endangered native animals, timber rattlers and eastern massassaugas.
please don't tell me that it has never happened before that people's animals were taken away even though they were perfectly legal?
lastly, i could really care less wether you believe me or not. this is a forum on venomous reptiles, i had an interesting experience with one, and thought people might want to read about it.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

np

I think the potential severity of Atheris bites is being overlooked here. These guys are HOT!!! If you look at their head structure, size and the only possibly recomended AV for treating a bite (Echis av) you basicly have an arboreal Saw Scaled!! These guys are not to be taken lightly. Former members of the genus (Proatheris) have been know to do horrendous things to ones blood chemistry (similar to what is seen in Echis envenomations) and Atheris squamiger, which is the closest related to cholrechis, have been known to kill people.

With that being said I definately recomend a trip to the ER for percautionary measures. Granted I understand why you were reluctant to seek treatment but that could have been the last desicion you ever made!! This isnt the same as takeing a hit from somthing like Aspidelaps (though that has potential to put you under as well)the limited research that has been done on these snakes all indicates sever toxicity.

I am overwhelmed that you came out with such minor inflictions and thank you for sharing the story with us but for future reference please refrain from ever tailing any arboreal viper/crotalid. With long arboreal hooks they transfer very easily and even the fastest and most onory Atheris isnt capable of putting you in that sort of situation if all precautionary measures have been used. I have hooked over a hundred Atheris and the most heart shaking thing to ever happen was big ol food whore of a female squam having a go at her dinky boy freind

Good luck with the finger and thanks again for sharing.

Adios,
J

point well taken, i just wanted to say that this was the first time(as far as i can remember) i tailed any of my arboreals. i always use two hooks.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

well everyone. I'm just going to thank Anton for sharing because it reminds us that we all can make a mistake. Whether he was right or wrong in choosing to forego medical treatment is in the past and maybe we can all learn from this. Since nothing bad came of it I'll consider it educational and remember this for future reference. So thanks Anton for being brave enough to share your story in the face of some people who are nastier than the snakes they keep.
Sera
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5.7 ball pythons (7 normal, 3 het albino, 2 het axanthic)
1.2 king snakes (1 chocolate, 2 albino)
1.1 columbian red tail boas
1.1 pueblan milksnakes
2.2 african house snakes
2.1 striped albino gophers
1.0 watersnake
1.2 burmese pythons (1 albino, 2 hets)
2.1 pygmy rattlesnakes
1.1 dumeril's boas
3.3 corns (miami, okatee, snow, caramel, 2 creamsicle)
1.1 jungle corns
0.2 ferrets
0.2 degus
0.1 salcotta tortoise
1.2 mice
1.1 rats
0.0.1 human on the way

Kids read this forum and think that what is said hear is coming from experts. If bitten the victim should go to the doctor.
as far as being nasty calling the Toledo zoo staff bad is nasty.
People make mistakes but Anton was the one who stated that medical care here in the USA is bad and that he knows more then the zoo / doctors.
Having worked over seas and seeing medical care there. We still have some of the best here in the USA.

Jim Harrison

don't put words in my mouth, get off of the zookeeper bandwagon already. i never said i knew more than them.
yes i do know more than the doctors, at least about snake husbandry, as most of us here do.
if you had spent any time overseas at all, you'd know that almost all of the sountries in the world have free healthcare.
i've lived in croatia, italy, czech republic, germany, austria, congo, gabon and u.a.e. they all had better levels of healthcare than the u.s.
last time someone close to me was in the hospital, she was told to "better figure out how you'll pay us, or we will kick you out. we'll also take your house and any of your other posessions." that does NOT constitute good health care, that is just being money-driven. oh, and that hospital is supposed to be non-profit also.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

Health care does need some help here but that does not mean doctors are bad. If the USA medical system is so bad why are so many people from the countries you talked about coming to the USA to get medical training.
Also you started in on the zoos. I doubt that you know more then most zookeepers that have forgone money to do the job they love.
As far as doctors and keeping snakes. Treating snakebite is far from keeping a snake in a cage your first statements were you and your wife knew more about snakebite then the doctors in your area. Toledo zoo has a very good doctor on call. But their not pros and you are. You may have AV but if no doctors are smart enough to use it what good is it.

Jim Harrison

people from other countries come here to train and work in the medical field for one simple reason: money. trust me, being a doctor in the u.s. pays more than anywhere else in the world.
please, do me a favor and read my posts again, word by word if you have to. you keep saying that i claim i know more than the zookeepers, when in every single post i've stated otherwise.
just because they choose to forego money to do something they love, does not make them saints. if you notice, my comment only referred to the toledo zoo. i happen to have nothing but respect for the guys at columbus and cleveland zoo. they might not be as good, but they are sure as hell professionals.
as far as i'm concerned, when keeping venomous reptiles, snakebite or the treatment of it is part of the husbandry.
i've seen quite a few of them, and i do know what venomous snakebite entails.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

not to be rude, but healthcare in other countries is NOT free...

someone somewhere in that country is paying for it...

probably on the backs of the people who are working and paying taxes...

unless of course all the staff (doctors, nurses, janitors, maint staff, x ray techs, secretaries, etc.) are donating their time, and the building, supplies, and equipment are all donated, along with electric, gas, water, sewer, and trash services are donated, well, then maybe it is free...

sorry...couldn't let that pass...

glad your envenomation wasn't serious...

Steve

actually, it comes from sales tax, and government subsidized businesses(like gas stations, for instance). also, a large portion of the money made from tourism and exportation of goods is filtered into healthcare and education. of course it is not *free*, but the money for it does not come out of the citizens' pockets.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?

that the 30% tax that a country like Canada (for example) may have isn't actually coming out of a persons pocket when they buy gas or any other type of product?

What a place to find a political debate Of course all that tax isn't for healthcare, but a larger portion may be as compared to the states. We have less guns. lol, and if you've seen the news lately you can see how we certainly cheaped out buying 50yr old subs.
The money comes from somewhere, and the actual judge of healthcare quality should be the facilities, availability, and the results (expertise). I've never been overseas, but I believe it is hard to beat the North American quality of healthcare.

Now can we get back to herps.... can you post some pic's of your atheris?

hey, no problem, and most of these guys' bark is worse than their bite.
i'll post some pictures of the snippy devil as soon as they're developed.
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Pozdrav,
Anton T.
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Thank you Sir, may I have another?