Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i've been thinking of getting cresteds since december of last year, and now i've FINALLY decided to get one... just to test it out (even though i know i'll get another one right after).

so i was searching through different breeders, and on one site, it specifically said that they do not inbreed their cresties. there are some sites that don't even tell me if their cresties were inbred. my question is: if i buy an inbred crestie, would it be a bad thing? and if so, what's a sign or symptom of having bought an inbred crestie?

thanks!
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0.0.2 Fire Bellied Toads (Norman & Forman)
1.0.0 Fighting Fish (Blue Balls)
0.0.2 Goldfish (Lenny & Carl)
1.0.0 Black Lab / Pit Bull (Mikey)

inbred cresteds are more susceptible to genetic disease and a definitlely a bad idea if you plan on breeding them.

>>inbred cresteds are more susceptible to genetic disease and a definitlely a bad idea if you plan on breeding them.

oh no, i don't plan on breeding for a long while... hehe~ i'm just wondering if i can see a genetic defect if i purchase one that was inbred... because i've only seen 1 or 2 sites that say they don't inbreed their cresties, but the rest of em just don't say anything about it~ and thanks for the information on susceptibility to genetic diseases!
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0.0.2 Fire Bellied Toads (Norman & Forman)
1.0.0 Fighting Fish (Blue Balls)
0.0.2 Goldfish (Lenny & Carl)
1.0.0 Black Lab / Pit Bull (Mikey)

As a rule, I try to pair animals that came from completely different sources, but I have no hesitation pairing siblings together if I know for a fact that their parents were completely unrelated.

About a year ago, I saw a crested gecko that had intense color, but also had a severely crooked spine. I was told by the owner that it was produced by pairing two nicely colored animals that came from the same breeder. He said that breeder had apparently only paid attention to color when pairing adults and neglected to add new blood to his line.

Another problem believed to be caused by inbreeding is small hatching size and/or weak hatchlings.

I haven't been breeding these guys long enough to tell you wether or not either of the above are true, but it makes sense to me that there's at least a little truth to both small size and deformities.

Of course, if a gecko is displaying any physical anomoly (that's not the result of an injury), regardless of it was caused by inbreeding, that's probably a gecko you want to avoid.

Having said all that, I've heard from numerous breeders that inbreeding isn't a problem unless you do it for more than 3-4 generations. The problem is, unless you buy geckos directly from the breeder, you never know how closely related their parents were.

I know there was no yes or no answer there for you, but hopefully that will give you a little insight.

-Anthony
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

This is a interesting topic.
One that I think makes us as humans a little squeamish.

I wouldnt pretend to have the knowledge or experence of a Breeder such as Anthony. But I might be able to add a few things to think on.

In nature theres no actual block for inbreeding by related cresteds .They could run into each other during mating season and nature would take its course.Odds are it doesnt happen a great deal and when it does it probally matters very little too the overall bloodline of the species.

In Captivity I think the majority of people breeders and owners alike try to avoid it. But it is also my understanding when breeders are after a specific trait in reptiles that breeding back into a bloodline is a normal practice.Again as long as its not a constant..it probally doesnt weaken the genetics in any meaningful way.

Whenn you think about it breeding animals in captivity most likely slowly changes the speciesa a great deal..in nature animals with the best camoflauge ,are the best hunters or best jumpers have the highest likelyhood of surving and passing thier abilities on to offspring.In captivity things such as color increases a animals likelyhood of breeding and having many offspring.They dont have to be able to hide or hunt at all. Evolution taking a different course.Its unlikey however a breeder will decide a animal with deformities or other bad qualities will breed him at all so your chances of getting a poor animal is very minimal .I wouldnt consider it a big concern .
If its something that troubles you however..I do notice many breeders do offer animals that specifically say the parents are from seperate bloodlines .That would be the equivilent of saying they dont inbreed.

i agree with the idea you presented about cresteds running into each other in nature while it's mating season! they wouldn't know (at least i doubt it.. hehe) and to them, it wouldn't be a problem because they won't be able to tell if their offspring would carry any defects. and i also agree that animals in captivity may have some different characteristics in their offspring because of the way they are raised by humans and their interactions with each other in an enclosed space.

and i'm not sure if i'm troubled by inbred cresteds or not because it seems we aren't positive about what it produces, although Anthony did give his idea about the 3-4 generation gap before starting to see actual deformities. the assumption (to me) seems correct because of how genetic defects become present in human first-cousin relations (which i only know from presented scientific research). so to me, i feel like swinging more on the side of purchasing a crested that is not inbred (as far as i know, of course) so if i ever decide to breed in the future, i'll be buying from a totally different breeder who may have a smaller chance of having a related crested unless they purchased or exchanged with the breeder i bought it from.

wow i write too much sorry if it's long!!
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0.0.2 Fire Bellied Toads (Norman & Forman)
1.0.0 Fighting Fish (Blue Balls)
0.0.2 Goldfish (Lenny & Carl)
1.0.0 Black Lab / Pit Bull (Mikey)

thank you, and yes it did give me some insight of crested inbreeding - which seems like it may cause some genetic defects (after the 3-4 generation gap). i guess that i, as a beginner in the crested gecko world, wouldn't be able to tell if i saw a crestie that was inbred assuming that it was a bad thing... and of course i'd never buy a reptile that had severe deformities if i knew about it. the only way i can see myself being positive about acquiring a crested that wasn't inborn was to hear it from the breeder himself, even though they have the ability to lie (which has happened with a friend when she purchased a leo @ a show).

but thanks again anthony, and the information did help! it gives me an idea of what to ask breeders and what to look for in future cresteds !!! also, if i ever do decide to start breeding in the future, i'll know what to avoid
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0.0.2 Fire Bellied Toads (Norman & Forman)
1.0.0 Fighting Fish (Blue Balls)
0.0.2 Goldfish (Lenny & Carl)
1.0.0 Black Lab / Pit Bull (Mikey)

It all boils down to the fact that you never know when you'll run into a genetic defect.

I didn't mean to use 3-4 generations as a solid number because the reality is that you never know when you're going to discover a genetic abnormality. You could breed one line for 5 or 6 generations and have no problems at all, but you might pair up a first generation pair of siblings and stumble onto something cool like an albino or something undesirable such as deformed eyes.

You really never know, but when you start inbreeding over multiple generations, the odds of stumbling onto a defect are increased exponentially with each subsequent generation of inbreeding.

With that in mind, I won't say that inbreeding is a bad idea, but that you should know what you're working with, if for no other reason than just to know how the odds are stacked.
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

Before cresties became so popular there was a limited amount of breeders working with them. Now because you haven't been able to get wild caught with out some type of special permission from New Cal. Even getting your cresteds from different breeders doesn't mean they're not related. A lot of breeders trade or buy each others stock. As more people raise and breed cresties the blood lines get mixed and diluted. There are a few breeders that still have "fresh" lines.

I was lucky enough to purchase a male from a wild caught pair around 4 years ago. The wild caught pair is about 10-12 years old now and stopped producing eggs two years ago.

I guess my point is inbreeding or line breeding has been done since they stopped exportation of the Rhacs. Most breeders are responsible enough to out breed their line if problems with the offspring occur.

The above is just my opinion.
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RandyS
R&B Geckos
Email: randbgeckos@adelphia.net

I have been breeding for 2 years. I am now producing 250 per year. I have never inbred any of my crested, but I didnt feel the need to. If I had a trait that was imperative for me to breed to get an enhancment or mutation I was looking for I would go for it. I would have to say 90% of my breeding groups are from Sandfire, with the other 10% coming from various other places. The various other places probably came from Sandfire also, but they just didnt know the history of the geckos parents. Shawn WWW.StickyFeetExotics.COM

No offense, but that's exactly what I mean. 90% of your breeders came from the same place so wouldn't that mean inbreeding is occurring? I'm not saying that it is wrong or right, just stating that the concept of inbreeding in reptiles might be overrated. When working with a limited gene pool inbreeding will occur.

I invested in some geckos around 6 years ago from one breeder and then the next year from a different breeder about 600 miles apart. The purpose was to get a group that wasn't related. It turns out both breeders got there stock from the same guy and I didn't find this out until one of them ordered from me.

Again, this is just my opinion.

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RandyS
R&B Geckos
Email: randbgeckos@adelphia.net