Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello. i live in citrus heights california and the only actual field herping ive done was around 6-10 pm in rocklin/auburn areas and all i have found are cal kings. does anyone know if i can find rubber boas around lake natomas, primarily around the bike trails this time of the year. i was also wondering what else i could find out there. thanks in advance.

~Justin (JQ)

Hi-
Rubber boas are not found around Lake Natoma. You'll need to go a bit higher in elevation, probably upslope from Auburn or Placerville. IN the Lake Natoma area you will find northern pacific rattlesnakes, gophersnakes, sharptailed snakes, ringneck snakes, yellow-bellied racers, California whipsnakes and 2 gartersnake species (I won't tell you which 2). Do yourself a favor and buy Western Reptiles and Amphibians (2003) by R. Stebbins. It will be the best $20.00 you will ever spend-
Good luck!
Eric

You need to go up Highway 50 or 80. Now would be an excellent time to road-cruise for newborns.

What is a good time of day/night to go cruising for newborns in mid-october on HWY50 and its side roads? I've only seen one wild one since moving to CA, and I'd like to see more.

Thanks,

Mike
mister toad

DON'T road-cruise Hwy 50! Anything you see will be flattened by the time you can double back. Use little-travelled side roads, including dirt Forest Service roads. For timing, anytime between an hour before sunset and approx. 10:00 pm should be fine, perhaps even later into the night if you're willing. Drive very slow because neonates are particularly hard to see. Adults will be out and about as well-
Eric

how far up 50 do i? is cameron park prime hunting ground and i was also wondering about the area around nimbus fish hatchery.... or is that the lake natomas area still? anywho i can do that on .... wensday!!! woot!! anywho thanks in advance.

~JQ

Hwy 50: South side of the upper American River Canyon from Pollock Pines on up in elevation. Highway 80: anywhere from Twin Bridges or Meyers on up to the summit. No magic to it, just get out your map and find some little-traveled roads. Plan on 4,000'-5,000' feet in elevation at the least and stick with it as long as you need to. Though it might seem too cold in the evening, it won't be. You might plan to camp out overnight there to save yourself the drive back at a late hour. Charina are pretty abundant snakes in that part of the Sierras and you should have no trouble finding one. Good luck.

I have heard of people finding that many Charina in one night in these areas. I personally found 2 nice adult boas in 15 minutes of hunting off of I-80 on a random dirt fire road when I was just passing through; temp was about 60 degrees. They are neat snakes, but they have the foulest musk of almost anything.

Good Luck

JQ,
Although I have studied the species in excess of 40 years, I have never had the occasion to make searches in the central Sierras. From my experience finding the species in the southern parts of its range in S. Calif. and in the Mt. Lassen area, the input by Erik L. re elevation seems sound, that you need to search bacl roads at around 4000' ft. and above.

The species is cool temperature tolerant so can be out and about at temperatures in the mid 50 degrees, sometimes cooler.

Erik is correct when he mentions the species is abundant but I would not be as optomistic as he suggests as far as finding a specimen at this time of year.

Richard F. Hoyer

For me, Spring has been best for flipping Charina in these areas and fall has been best for road-cruising neonates. Though I have never done better than one-here, one-there on Autumn nights, friends have seen as many as 11 youngsters at well-known spots up Highway 80 in October. Charina are everywhere up there, just more dense in some areas than others. These numbers are probably just a reflection of this. If I were in northern California right now, it wouldn't be overly optimistic to say that Charina could be had any night this week if you hunt smartly. My 2-cents worth...

Thanks for the advice. You all are great.

I will try to go out in the next week, and I'll let you know if I find anything if I go.

Mike
mister toad

Erik,

The spring season is longer and thus better than the fall for finding the species. Once warm weather arrives, the species becomes primarily nocturnal and can be encountered at night on the surface (including on roads) most any time but best is after a summer rain and/or when it is overcast with higher than usual humidity. I seldom road cruise as I have better success per time spent searching beneath cover objects during suitable daylight conditions.

During my study of the SRB in the San Bernardino Mts., I would return each fall to release the adults found in the spring and any neonates (newborn) produced in captivity. During 3 of 4 years, I struck out during the time of fall I was there as conditions were too warm and dry. However, during one year, I believe 1997, I hit it just right in mid to late Oct. and found 17 SRBs in 1 1/2 days.

The reason I was not wishing to have JQ get up his hopes is that he had probably not done this type of searching for the species and does not know exactly where to go. Had he been more experienced and knew some good spots ahead of time, chances for success would be increased.

Your opinion that implies that the boas is abundant is on target as mentioned. You are but a handful of individuals with that opinion for the more common opinion amongst herpers, most wildlife biologists, and even the majority of professional herpetologists / academics is that the species is scarce to rare.
That was the conventional wisdom at the time I went through my undergraduate education at Ore. St. U. in the early to mid 1950's and that perception persists to this day. If one truly understands the basic tenets of population biology, even without hard data, an individual with just rudimentary knowledge of the species should come to the realization that the species could not possibly be rare or scarce.

I hope you optimism turns out to be correct.

Richard F. Hoyer

my girlfriend and i are going to go cruz for a spot in auburn and just go wondering around after school around 830pmish. we go to sierra college which is actually pretty close to auburn. the only experience i have with field herping is garter snakes in the coastal regions, kingsnakes and the unfortunant event that i always seem to run into a rattle snake while kingsnake herping. anywho thank you for your advice everyone and ill report what i find(that includes nothing ).

~JQ

Without trying to take issue with you, Richard, I'm not really sure that it should be up to you or me to "get somebody's hopes up" or not. Herping is a crap shoot much of the time but if I ever got a pessimistic attitude about trying it, then I would probably find some other pasttime. The best way to never catch a snake is by not getting in the car and since you've agreed to the relative abundance of Charina, why the cautionary remark to this kid? One of the things which I always liked about night driving, flipping, etc. was the serendipitous nature of it. You never knew what would happen. Though Charina was always something I happened across while hunting for zonata, I found a lot of them each year and even within that context, I still saw them at times and in places that surprised me. Half the fun was trying a new place, new strategy, new time and seeing what would happen.

Optimism and patience are the two best traits for success in field herping, you can never have too much of either and I, at least, would never counsel somebody who wants to try this or that otherwise. Beating up the same old spots every season for the safe bet is fine, I guess, and maybe somebody needs to drag the 100th Charina off the hillside just to see if looks slighty different than the other 99 but this guy needs to go for it now instead of second-guessing our advice and staying at home. I'd be a lot richer if I made a dollar every time I caught a snake that surprised me than if I got paid five dollars for the one I predicted I would get under my favorite board line.

Erik,
I'm not certain we differ in our approach or just in the use of words. I have nothing against being optimistic as long as it does not result in unrealistic expectations.

What you may characterize as being pessimistic I would characterize as being realistic. Unrealistic expectations (over optimism) can lead to one becoming discouraged and disillusioned. Adopting a position that if one does not have immediate success, that's OK for that is par for the course. Eventually success will occur if one spend sufficient time (patience), and effort pursuing an objective.

When I first started in my quest to learn all I could about C. bottae, without exception, everyone including my herpetology professor mentioned how rare was the species. Would you characterize such input at being pessimistic? I understood that such attitudes simply reflected the experience these individuals had with the Rubber Boa. Such input did not affect my determination. And as it turned out, I did not have instant success. But eventually I did find specimens but it took me a number of years to learn when, where and how to find the species with regularity.

In my post, I merely tried to provide a realistic appraisal. If success is not attained on the first try or first number of tries, then there would be no surprise as this might be expected. In no way should calling a spade a spade be an impediment to making an honest effort or future efforts if someone really wishes to find the species.

And last, there is the issue of being honest. It would not be honest if I were to tell individuals that they could expect to find C. bottae the very first time they tried. I have encountered individuals that have searched for years and have yet to find their first specimen. So why would I purposely give false hope to anyone that is starting out from scratch. Despite my knowledge and experience, there are times I get skunked--there are no guaranties in this type of endeavor. But if one is persistent, eventually success will occur. I would not characterize such an approach as either optimistic or pessimistic but simply realistic.

Just my perspective. Richard F. Hoyer

n/p

if i go now this second??? i went last night a little past auburn and found snake sheddings !! its a start anyways. i also found 3 foot shedding of what looks like kingsnake shedding at sierra college on the nature trail. my zoology professor said he caught some rubbers in auburn aound some manzanita thicket, that was in august. im going to try the area around a fish hatchery on ophir road and also im going to go to pollock pines today around 5pmish.

~JQ

Just kidding. Email me privately at erikloza@msn... You know the rest of the address. I will tell you where to look. I would do an overnighter this weekend.

Erik brings up a great issue that should not be lost here, and that is serendipity. Justin, you've said that you sometimes come across rattlesnakes when looking for kingsnakes, which seems to me to be an overly-restrictive approach to herping. When I go out, I have "target species" that I'd like to see, but I'm just as appreciative of any other finds I make. I'd be disappointed if I went out with the intent of finding a particular species and didn't find it (which is usually the case). Instead, I go out knowing what could be there (based on species distribution maps, habitat and the like) and I try to see what I can find. It helps to be a generalist and keep your eyes open for lizards, anurans, even birds. If you go out with that frame of mind, you will not feel skunked if you do not see a rubber boa. As I said before, get to know Stebbins (2003).
Another tip: ALWAYS take a camera with you. You never know what you'll come across, and the possibility exists that you'll be able to document some rare or never-before-seen behavior. A picture is worth a thousand words, particularly if you write something up for publication-
Again-Have fun!
Eric

Well said. I left northern California for Texas about 7 months ago and the thing I enjoy most is rolling the dice again and seeing what I can find. No particular plan, nothing special in mind, just be there and see what happens. As much as I was surprised and thrilled to find my first Charina 15 years ago on a zonata trip and seeing that snake climbing a tree to raid a bird nest, I am equally thrilled these days to catch Micrurus, Nerodia, and Agkistrodon. Any trip is a good trip and even if I don't find what I might have wanted, it's always better than hanging around the house. For as many trips as I made to the Sierras for z. or Charina and got skunked, it was still great to see bobcats, Black Bears, and even a Fisher once. Now, even if I don't see the annulata or alterna I wanted, it's just as much fun to see the porcupine, Cara-cara, or ringtail that I never would've seen back home. To me, that's the most fun about herping and I hope others see tha value in it, as well.

Where in Texas are you? I made my one and only trip to Texas this year as part of a watersnake study. Spent 4 days in Brownsville, and saw my first Drymobius after being out of the car for only 10 minutes! Saw 3 others later in the trip, as well as 2 Texas indigos, 3 coral snakes, 3 black-lined snakes, and a bunch of more common things (tons of gulf-coast toads!). There are many other herps I'd like to see on a return trip...
By the way, I remember you from the NCHS meetings in Davis. In the late 90's I was attending those meetings. I think you were president then?
Take care-
Eric

I'm in Austin, though I have tried to see as much of Texas as possible during my time here. Lots of the Gulf, parts of the lower Rio Grande, and the typical alterna spots. Yes, those were the NCHS days and I miss them. May I email you privately? I want to talk about Drymobius if you wouldn't mind. Thanks...

Hi Erik-
Yes, feel free to contact me. I assume my email address is accessible though Kingsnake.com? I just signed up, so I'm a bit unsure as to how this all works. If not, let me know-
Eric

i wasnt meaning to make it sound like i was dissapointed to find rattlesnakes. i like going out even if i dont find what im specifically looking for because its nice to see a non-polluted sky with nothing but stars in it, the quiet atmosphere without cars, and also seeing the other wildlife. i went to french meadows today and found no Charina, but i saw a blackbear cub, oppossum, lots of squirrels and chipmunks, some mice and a 8 in centipede. all in all it was a fun trip. i think though im going to try going up 50 next time and i still need to check out that fish hatchery.

JQ

There will be a fair amount of traffic but there are enough roads off the beaten path in these areas that you should be able to find someplace quiet to hunt. Camp out if you can; it is very nice up there. All the roads up there will produce Charina. Good luck.

I live in Orangevale, and am very well acquainted with herping in our area. I have never seen rubber boas at low elevations like Natomas. In my opinion, it is almost getting to be too late in the year to find rubber boas now. You might get lucky though if you head up to French Meadow Reservoir some day soon. I've had the best luck hunting from dusk to nine or ten at night. I've found them out when the temps were low sixties, so those animals seem to not mind the lower temps. They must have antifreeze for blood! They show up really well on the road. Although I've done no hunting on foot after dark, reason tells me that they are probably all over the place, not just on the roads. Another place to hunt for them is a little farther away: I've seen several specimens in mid-September on the roads near Boca and Stampede Reservoirs east of Truckee. I know several spots where I have found and released perhaps twelve zonatas, as well. I once found a yearling zonata right next to a snow bank in late April!