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Deremensis oral infection...interesting, maybe important.

eric adrignola Oct 04, 2004 04:59 PM

Well, last May I lost my favorite chameleon, my CB male deremensis to an oral infection--maybe.

He came down with a swelling around his jaw, and some cheesey stuff stuck in there--pretty typical stuff. I gave him some silvadine cream, and baytril. I did not notice that an abcess formed inside his mouth, until it was quite large. I do not think the abcess is what killed him--I think it was the treatment. The vets had him warmed up to the high 90's post-op(stupid, stupid, STUPID), and he never recovered. IT took him about 2 weeks to die after that.

At first he lookd allright, but he seemed to get worse with each pasisng day. He HATED HATED the baytril.

My little WC male came down with the exact oral infection--only much worse. His jaw sweled all the way tio the corner of the mouth, and his skin was turning near black along the jaws.

I wasn't about to try the same treatment on this one.

So, all I did was clean out the crud and apply some silva sulfadine cream along the inside of his lips, along the gumline, and wipe off the excess. He never stopped eating, and fully recovered in less than two weeks. The black, necrotic looking skin went away with his shed last week, and he looks better than ever.

My big male veild got some big 3rd degree burns months ago,a nd was treated with silva..whatever cream,a nd baytril. His burned leg was burned to the bone at one spot in the knee, and all the skin was gone around all his knee. That leg looks bad, but is strong. His "good" leg is weaker now, and he often hangs it around, as if sore(he still has strength in it, enough to hold on)--I am wondering if the baytril caused him damage, or if the burns did some nerve damage.

He's fine otherwise.

I won't be using baytril on any of my deremensis anymore. Especially since my two females recovered from URI's last winter without any baytril.

On an unrelated note, my little girl is due in January...just 3 months away... can't wait.

Replies (5)

Carlton Oct 04, 2004 06:13 PM

If we were to look into this I bet we'd find it's not that uncommon for chams to have bad reactions to Baytril. I don't think we know for sure why, or if it could be an individual sensitivity. For example, I've had several melleri who ended up getting Baytril for various infections. Two out of three were fine, the 3rd almost crashed after 2 days. There are definitely other meds to consider including amoxicillin which are broad spectrum and not as strong. That post-op heat may have put a huge stress on liver and kidneys (which Baytril also damages) so maybe you ended up with progressive kidney failure. As for the 2nd mouth rot you treated maybe you were lucky (and thorough because you know chams well) in removing all the infectious crud, or maybe it was a different bacteria causing it. Just don't know for sure. I do know I don't automatically accept a vet's prescription for Baytril...always ask for a culture and about alternatives that the specific bacteria is sensitive to. It might take longer to get rid of the bacteria, but if the cham is less "damaged" maybe that pays off long term. Also (you probably already know this) when injecting Baytril don't inject farther back on the body than the shoulder area...stay as far away from kidneys as you can to slow the shock/absorbtion of the drug.

Reneimming Oct 05, 2004 11:50 AM

Heya,

Just wanted to give my two cents on this one. Eric, do you often encounter problems with infections in the mouth and airways. You mentioned that your females also suffered from uri's last year. It happens to everyone once in a while but to have it reoccur on numerous occasions could mean that there is a fundimental problem in there setup. Please don't take it the wrong way, I am just trying to maybe find out why it keeps happening. Carlton mentioned in his post that baytril is injected in the animal. I find this to be far to stressful for the animal and prefer to use oral drops. You can give it while they drink stress free. Obviously this is not always possible and it does take a bit longer to take effect but I have had much better results with this methode.

It's a real shame to hear what happened to your previouse deremensis. Vets should know when to turn patients down if they are lacking in experience.

Good luck with the rest of your animals Eric.

Best regards,

Rene Imming.

eric adrignola Oct 05, 2004 12:12 PM

Setups were fine. They're open air, pens, 5 feet tall, so the air is fresh, not stagnant. The URI was a bit weird, but if I remember correctly, it was very soon after I got her(WC), so not too out of the ordinary.

It's strange that both of them (the males) got oral infections. I think it may be from the roaches I was feeding them--hissers have some very sharp spikes, and sometimes have cut ME. I use mainly when they're young, and /or soft. Soetimes I have used them because I ran out of everything else.

My original male wouldn't touch anything but grasshoppers and hissing roaches for a while.

ChrisAnderson Oct 05, 2004 12:52 PM

>>Setups were fine. They're open air, pens, 5 feet tall, so the air is fresh, not stagnant. The URI was a bit weird, but if I remember correctly, it was very soon after I got her(WC), so not too out of the ordinary.
>>
>>It's strange that both of them (the males) got oral infections. I think it may be from the roaches I was feeding them--hissers have some very sharp spikes, and sometimes have cut ME. I use mainly when they're young, and /or soft. Soetimes I have used them because I ran out of everything else.
>>
>>My original male wouldn't touch anything but grasshoppers and hissing roaches for a while.

Eric,

I have to agree with Rene here. URIs in your females. Mouth infections in your males, burns to the bone in your veiled and the numerous posts we've heard about your chams getting into other chams cages causing cross species copulation and injury. I honestly think you need to really rethink your setups, you are having far to many problems to think they are fine. Just because they are open air does not mean you aren't doing SOMETHING, albiet unintentional, that is causing all these problems. If you have photos and good descriptions of your setups, I think its best if you post them so we can try to help you out.

Chris
-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
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Carlton Oct 05, 2004 12:54 PM

I've read that adding more citrus to gutloads can help prevent stomatitis. Upping the vitamin C is supposed to acidify saliva as well as strengthen immune response. Haven't have enough animals to know for sure, but it won't hurt. The roach scutes or spines are a real possibility for little cuts on lips or gums. Not enough that I don't feed them, but maybe upping your vit. C content might help.

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