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been out of dart frogs for a few years.....questions

gutloader Oct 05, 2004 08:25 AM

hi all...i haven't kept darts in about 3 years....i had 4 powder blues in a 40 gallon hex and 5 mantella expectata in a 40 gallon breeder...

what got me kind of burned out on them was raising fruitflies...always had way too many and the smell after awhile was getting annoying so my first question is....will darts do well on a diet consisting mainly of pinheads with occasional fruitflies???

i want to do a large tank (maybe a 55) with a false bottom...can anyone direct me to a set of instructions or ideas on how to do this??

i have access to a few other prey items and i'm curious if a dart frog will eat them....will they take newborn mantis, hornworms or roaches??

sorry so long but any help is appreciated

Replies (13)

TheFrogGuy Oct 05, 2004 11:54 AM

Although I've never tried it, I've read many reports that darts thrive on pinhead crickets. I give mine pinheads on occasion, not as a staple. We also have knats outside that they seem to love.

I don't know, but I would assume mantids would be fine, I guess I've never thought about giving them mantids. Now that I think about it though, they'd definately be easier. Just put the egg cases in the viv, and they'll hatch on their own. Egg cases are cheep too.
-----
1.1.0 Sunburst Veileds (Oscar and Lizzie)
1.1.0 Azureus darts
2.3.0 Mantids
1.0.0 Albino Pacman (Grumpy)
2.0.0 White's Tree Frogs
0.2.0 Cats (Oreo and Doodle)

jhupp Oct 05, 2004 01:16 PM

Pinheads don't represent a staple, and are only suitable for suplemting certian species diets, for two reasons. 1) Size; not all darts are capable of taking pinheads, makeing them suitable for only large species (Tinc group size). 2) Uneatten crikets pose a threat to the health of your darts. Any missed pinheads that mature in the viv are likely to munch on your sleeping darts. (I amaging the same threat exists with mantids. In that case I could easily foresee death of the frog.)

As much as you may not want to hear it, fruitflies are realy the best staple. If you don't want to raise them your self, there are many 'monthly meat' programs out there that can supply you with flys.

gutloader Oct 06, 2004 09:01 AM

newborn crickets are smaller than fruitflies so i don't think fitting them in their mouths is a problem...

my thoughts are that crickets would be a better staple food because they can be gutloaded where fruitflies really can't...i'd put a good commercial cricket diet up against potato flakes anyday...am i wrong about this theory??

pitcherplant7 Oct 06, 2004 12:03 PM

Yes, fruit flies can be gut loaded. That is how the "color enhancer" thing works in the fruit fly medium. It is somewhat easier than crickets, as crix don't eat as much once they have plenty of fish food, while fruit flies eat constantly in their short lifecycle. Crickets are very expensive though, and its not very practical unless you've got a lot of time to breed them yourself, or the food bill will be huge. I know a lady with a ton of herps that spends nearly a $100 a month to feed her collection. Not something I would want to do. Plus, crickets smell a lot WORSE in my experience than the tons of cultures I got. I never use potato flakes either, and I discard my cultures quick when they start going bad.

You could try lobster roaches. However, roaches are somewhat hardier than crickets are, and they could survive in the terrarium until adult size. Not something I'd want to deal with.

If I were you, I'd experiment with different mediums, containers, etc. to get fruit flies "down to pat." I spent a month just perfecting my culturing ability before I got my dart frogs and mantellas. You might want to house your fruit fly cultures in a 10 gallon fish tank with a small light and a heat pad to keep them healthy, in your basement. Or simply put, a self contained enclosure containing the cultures, a "food cabinet." I keep some of the cultures beginning to smell down stairs in the basement, while the fresher cultures are upstairs.

And, do you have any cultures of flour beetles? They are so easy to culture, and are good for times when your cultures go bad, or just to add some fat to baby froglets.

gutloader Oct 07, 2004 07:31 AM

i breed lobster roaches for my cham and pixie frog but, yes, i'm a bit nervous about putting them in a terrarium becuse they will never die...

i breed crickets because i need the pinheads for newly hatched mantids (which go to the cham) so i always have them...

the only fruitfly medium i ever tried was potato flakes and brewers (not bakers) yeast with some confectioners sugar...not aware of any others

thanks for your input

EdK Oct 07, 2004 09:21 PM

Crickets are fine as the sole food source I have kept a number of species with crickets as the main diet at work for more than 10 years. Crickets are more expensive than culturing your own ffs (I use the Carolina Bio supply co media at home and it smells like rising bread).
Crickets do eat frequently and the gut contents can turn over in within a few hours (one of the reasons high calcium diets are problematic).

Supplementation of color in FFs may not work to increase the frog's color as not pigments in a frogs skin are based on caretenoids. A number of them are pterins which are synthesized from purines.

Some comments.

Ed

jhupp Oct 06, 2004 08:04 PM

Are you suggesting you would rather culture crikets over fruitflies? Like Doug said, crikets smell far worse then even the nastiest fruitfly culture you can find. I only brought up the size issue becuse I was assuming you weren't going be culturing the crikets (the smell complaint), and what are sold as pinheads in pet stores are genearlly on the order of 0.25 inches long. Pretty big for most darts.

I stand by the statement they are unsuitable as a staple.

gutloader Oct 07, 2004 07:37 AM

i'll have to look into a monthly fruitfly delivery program or find a pet store that has a good supply of them..my free time isn't what it used to be

i know i can breed them easily; the problem is they breed too easily and i end up with soooo many more than i will ever need

i will look into all this stuff before i get started with setting up a tank

thanks to all of you for answering

pitcherplant7 Oct 07, 2004 11:47 AM

There's the problem. Where is the fruit mix for the fruit flies? That medium doesn't even contain any traces of vinegar. Yeast cultures better under acidic conditions. Fruit flies need fruit. Just sugar and potato flakes isn't going to cut it. You need to mix a little banana, apple sauce, etc. with a dash of vinegar. I also notice if you cook it, the yeast cultures much, much quicker, and flies will proliferate faster. I've experimented with tons of different strategies, and I still do to this day. Just be careful with how much vinegar you use. I know about how acidic conditions are needed to culture yeast for wine, so I added way too much of this before and end up killing most of the flies. On the positive side, the flies that did remain, produced fewer, but much larger offspring, but generally not suitable if you got a various group of frogs.

If you are still stumped with homemade medium, just save up and get some commercial medium.

EdK Oct 07, 2004 09:23 PM

Fruit flies do not need fruit. Fruit flies need sugar and yeast. Vinegar is a result of aerobic fermentation by the yeast.
Potato flakes, baby cereal commercial mixes all supply the yeast with a sugar and/or carbohydrate base on which to feed.

Ed

gutloader Oct 08, 2004 07:31 AM

ok...so what exactly are the fly larvae ingesting???...is adding friut to a culture a waste of time because the larvae will not take in the vitamins you think but just sugar??...if that's true, wouldn't any gutloadable insect be a better prey item??...this is something i've always thought but usually am shot down by someone posting that 10 year old "insect nutritonal breakdown" chart which in my opinion is inaccurate because it doesn't account for the insects gut content..sorry, i'm rambling

EdK Oct 08, 2004 12:19 PM

Several items here.

1) You are assuming that the nutritional value of the larva is the same as the adults. This is not true. The gut contents of the larva do not persist through the pupal stage into adulthood. So gutloading the larva is a waste of time (I normally do not recommend feeding maggots to any nonchewing animal as maggots can be passed alive. There is also some speculation that some maggots can damage the intestional tract (See Obst for the reference).

2) You are assuming that the vitamins in the fruit are persisting in the media and are not oxidizing or being degraded by the bacteria and yeasts. This is not the case, the vitamins and mineral are not only being broken down (remember these are not sterilized closed enviroments like a canned item or an undamaged piece of fruit but are active open enviroments. Adult FFs feed like other morphologically similar diptera. They deposit salivary secretions and suck up the resultent soup. Yeast are a pretty well balanced meal for the larva. The yeast convert sugars and some proteins (I should have included that above as the potato ect includes protiens used by the yeast)into pretty much everything the FFs need so yes all they need is yeast and sugar (and whatever protein is in the substrate) which is supplied by potato flakes, baby cereal or commercial media.

3) How do you know that the nutritional breakdown of the charts do not take into account gut contents? Nutritional breakdowns are done on well fed insects and animals with the guts in place (see the chapter in Mader's book on Reptile Nutrition). If the intestional contents are removed this is noted under the charts.

4) people add vinegar to the media as it reduces the chances the media will go bad. Microwaving the media accomplishes the same thing.

Ed

gutloader Oct 11, 2004 02:46 PM

np

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