Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a pic of three different adults: top to bottom, a female i suspect may be a hybino; an albino male; and a hypoerythristic ("anerythristic" male. These are all PURE pyros. I also have two different lines of hypos--the Barczyk line and the Sentz line--and i still have an "applegate special" female i use to breed x my anerythristic male.

The range of possibilities is exciting. There can (will) be two different "ghosts"--double morph anery & hypo animals, one from each of the hypo lines. I think the double-morphs applegate special & anery will be distinctive, too, and of course the snow is exciting to anticipate though in the distant future.

Anyway, I thought these pix might be interesting.
Peace
terry dunham
albino tricolors

terry-
do you have double hets for ghost yet? if so do they appear to be like normal pyros or are there some phenotypic differences?
dave b

>>terry-
>>do you have double hets for ghost yet? if so do they appear to be like normal pyros or are there some phenotypic differences?
>>dave b

I did produce 2.2 double hets this year, from my anery male x a sentz-line hypo female. I wouldn't expect any differences in appearance in hets or double hets and so haven't examined the snakes carefully, but i haven't noticed anything.

terry

Terry,

What a great pic! Lots of excitement lies ahead with the pyros! It's going to be fun...Thanks for sharing the pic with us all.

Matt

Hi terry,
Tha pic is really neat. You should do the same type of pic-(with 3 more pic next to these like I said in an e-mnail), one showing the applegate body, another showing the sentz hypo, and one showing the BHB hypo, that way its all the genetic moprhs in a nice 6 pic page. Its gonna be neat in the next few years to see hwo all this works out, especially once we figure out forsure whast up with the hypo lines. More than likely its 2 different lines as we all think, which in a way will be neat cause as you said, there will be 2 different ghost-(double homo animals), one with the sentz hypo and one from the BHb hypo. They could be 2 different looking ghost too../,thats the fun of it, wroking towards seeing all this unfold and lots of new interesting babys to be seen in the future. Thanks for posting that pic here, I'm sure theres other people interested in seeing it.
jeff teel

Terry

Im not clear on what the bottom Pyro is mutation wise. It doesnt look like any anery Ive seen ? It looks like a faded normal. Is it supposed to be lacking red ? Is it a proven recessive mutation ? Pretty snakes by the way !

Keith
-----

>>Im not clear on what the bottom Pyro is mutation wise. It doesnt look like any anery Ive seen ? It looks like a faded normal. Is it supposed to be lacking red ? Is it a proven recessive mutation ? Pretty snakes by the way !
>>Keith

Hi Keith,

First, the morph has performed as a recessive: I produced 1.1 of them last year from the original male and a presumed "het" daughter. No one's bred "het" x "het" yet, the original animal was wild caught so bred x normals, and though jeff teel has a het male that's bred, he didn't have a het female ready for it this year. So the only test breedings were mine of the original x "het" females, and i got some normal-lookign babies, presumably more hets, and the two babies last year like the father.

Second, you raise a good point: I know, the one on the bottom is actually "hypo-erythristic"--REDUCED red, not absent red. But the same is true of "anerythristic" hondurans--THEY are also actually hypoerythristics, virtually all of them show some remaining pink or salmon in the formerly "red" rings. So choosing a name or label for a morph is partly based on the most descriptive possible term (hypoerythristic) and part is based on calling them something people will readily understand. The fact is though that the hondurans have a MUCH greater degree of reduction than the pyros do.

I've referred to them as hypoerythristics and as anerys, probably using the latter term less often, and for only 3 reasons, perhaps none of them legitimate:
1) "anery" as a convenient abbreviation is shorter, easier than hypoerythristic, and just "hypo" won't suffice because you have to be specific, "hypo"MELANISTIC? or "hypo"ERYTHRISTIC (in fact, once we start using only the more precise "hypoerythristic" term for these, the abbreviated "hypo" should never be used again re: pyros because it could refer to either of two morphs)
2) it's a term people generally are familiar with
3) the original hypoerythristic was sold to me as an anerythristic.

What other anerys have you seen? Are any lampropeltis "anerys" true anerys, wholly lacking the red/yellow pigment? ("anery" agalma sometimes start out red or pinkish red and fade to "anerythristic" appearance with time, right? yet some look "anery" (actually hypoerythristic) as soon as they hatch. now THERE is a confusing morph, and maybe a bad example to throw into this discussion. so what else have you seen?)

terry

it's also true that the "pale hypos" I posted a pic of ARE hypoerythristic, how better to describe the reduced red on them? But setting them apart from the hypoerythristic or "anery" we're discussing in this thread, is not only the fact that the red is reduced in different ways, but also that the "pale hypo" is also hypo, yet not characteristic of the two other hypo pyro types i'm familiar with, the barczyk line in which the black rings are altered to a dark chocolate brown, and the sentz line on which the black rings are altered to a lighter coffee-and-cream brown.

Those both appear to have been proven to be recessive morphs. Are they the same or different alleles, if i'm using that term correctly? And waht about this new "pale" type? Is it a third type? Or might all three be variations on a single hypo morph, just points along a continuum?

(the same issue is being examined now with "super" or "extreme" hypomelanistic HONDURANS, on which the black rings are reduced to a flesh color that's much lighter than any pyro i'd seen before mike falcon produced the first "extreme" a couple years ago. Two diff hypomelanistic hondo morphs? Or just lighter and darker variations of a single hypom mutation? -- some background: one breeding of extreme x extreme hypom SEEMS this year to have produced babies all but one of which were extremes. But that one that wasn't an extreme poses serious questions about the nature of the genetics. And a breeding of my extreme hypo male hondo x a "regular" hypo female produced babies all of which were hypos, but none were extremes. It's gonna take more test breedings to confirm what's going on there).

And i guess it's gonna take more test breedings to determine exactly what's going on with these various hypom pyros. Jeff, did you breed barczyk x sentz? or has anyone bred the two lines together even on a het to homozygous or het to het level? give us a report, maybe start a new thread, if you have data to share.

I know there are hets that are definite het for one of the two hypomelanistic types and possible het for the other. Eventually we'll run across pairs that produce both...but sometimes those pairs can impede understanding the genetics more than helping us understand them--will there be a third type, the double-morph sentz and barczyk hypo m, which combines the reduction of the first type and the further reduction of the second type, producing an animal that's even lighter than either of the first two? Makes sense, but figuring it all out....

Hi,
Terry has great points. especially where he says that hets that are het for hypo line and poss. het-hypo for another hypo line might be worse than better, especially in the begining of a project-(like pyro morph projects). About your question on hypo lines-(BHB hypos and Sentz hypos), myself, I bred a sentz hypo female x BHB het-hypo amle, got normal babys-(this is out fo 3 eggs, and all 3 babsy looked normal, so are 100% het-hypo and poss. het-hypo BHB, the male I kept might breed next year, which would be very interesting to see the results of that x my sentz hypo and eventually his sibling, a female)

As you say, breeding double hets-(if there was a breeding of sentz hypo x BHB hypo), and the only guy that could do that is BHB I think, casue he had bought 1 of the sentz hypos when frank memmos first produced them and wasnt sure of what they were and sold it to BHB, so he had a sentz hypo and produced hets from each line-(the sentz hypo he bought and the group of pyros he bought that produced albinos and hypos out of the same animals-(which is just like the black gap alterna- anerys and hypos were produced from the same line, so ghost popped out too, and thats what its like with BHB hypos and albinos, almost all BHB hypos are poss. het-albino and albinos poss. het-hypo BHB), but I've tried numerous times to talk with Brian about this stuff with no luck from messages, fax's and e-mails, even phone calls,but oh well. But letss ay that someone did breed a sentz hypo x a BHB hypo, and got all normals, then breed those together and chances of the double homo being some sort of super hypo would be great i think, with sentz hypos the dark bands are almost light coffe-cream color, where BHB hypos have darker black bands-(almost a chocolate brown, but darker than sentz hypos), but they seems to have a more of a pale orange-red on them, especially as babys. So a double homo sentz hypo-BHB hypo could have very plae ornage, and the very light coffe-cream color fo sentz hypos, combining the 2 lines together, and making a super looking hypo. But untill a sentz hypo x BHB hypo breeding happens-(unless BHB has done it already..?, we wont know if it will produce double het babys that are normal looking, or if it will produce hypos from both ends of the spectrum- soem being more pale in the orange like BHB hypos and soem having very light colored coffe-cream bands liek sentz hypos do. Theres lots to be seen still with it all, and years of teste breeding to see whats the real deal.

So with the very small # of normal babys I produced from my sentz x het-hypo BHB male, I could only guess that these 2 lines are not compatible..?-(anyone that talks to Brian Barzyack, please ask these ?'s to him, as I think he might be able to prived better answers these ?'s forsure), and Mark petros did a breeding last year of a BHB hypo male x a het-hypo Sentz female, and if I recall correct, he got 8 eggs from that breeding and all 8 normal..?, so either the ehst that mark and I used are not hets and thats why we got normal babys, or the 2 lines arent compatible with each other-(which is what i think, I think the BHB hypos are their own thing, now since they come from the same line as the albinos, whats up with breeding BHB hypo x albino..?, maybe the BHB hypos are somewhere along the line of amelanistic, just not all the way there..?), but with these "PALE" hypos that terry has produced this year, the ones from the "orange"male x het"ornage"female-(I'm in now ays aying that "ORANGE" pyros are a moprh, terry just bought them and they were labled like that from the seller) but those hypos were just as pale as your BHB hypos right...?, mark petros produced a hypo het-albino last year, and it was very pale looking, in the orange bands, not the dark bands, those were still dark-(not black, but more of a dark chocolate color, to me that pic of marks from last year, the BHB hypos you produced this year, plus the BHB hypo you sent me on breeder loan, they all have that paler look with dark choclate bands. Anyways, I went way overboard maybe, wrote alot,but oh well. I guess the only real way we'll get down to knwoing it all is test breedings, and very accurate notes by us doing these breedings-(I've got all my notes from '02-'04,since breeding the pyro moprhs), well it will be fun to watch it all expand and see what happens in the future.
Hope it makes ense to some..?
Jeff Teel

you talk to brian at the Anaheim show?Anyways,He is answering e-mails now so try e-mailing him.

bhb@comcast.net

shannon

I LOVE THE NORMALS! And the ones with the black crossovers! And...of course what you like is your business and more power to you in your pursuits. But....I LOVE THE NORMALS! lol

Bob.