Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello.

Would like to know if there is a way of determining the surgical alteration procedure used on a venomoid elapid. Does placement of the surgical scars indicate whether a complete adenectomy or simple duct ligation was performed? Are radiographs of the head revealing? Are implants always utilized to fill the cavities in an adenectomy, or might there be distinguishing physical characteristics in some specimens?

Please- only experienced, professional, and knowledgable replies needed. It is not my wish to start a forum on the topic, nor do I need input from beginning hobbyists or an individual's opinions and guesses.

Any expert advice and information would be greatly appreciated. Email replies to damien@cinci.rr.com

Thank you.

Or did the remark about knowledgeable and professional discount you all? I personally think this is a good question. Funny thing is, after I read it, I didn't think he'd get any responses. That's what happens when someone asks a legitimate question. With all the "vets" running around in here, you would think ONE would be able to answer it. I would love some input as well.

Basically, to answer the question, most all of the time venomoid elapids have had an adenectomy, which is the removal of the entire venom gland, as opposed to altering the ducts. The venom ducts on elapids are far too small to allow it effective to tie or sever the duct. Scar placement will merely indicate removal of the duct. Sometimes they go through the mouth, sometimes they go between the scales on the head. Sometimes the guy is good enough to cut between the scales and leave no obvious scarring at all.

Implants are only a relatively new thing. Not all venomoid elapids will have implants, and those that don't are obvious because the head looks sunken in where the huge venom glands used to be. The sort of look... humiliated. Those venom glands make up such a huge percentage of the mass of an elapid's head that when they are removed, you simply can't miss what's missing. Thus, the invention of artificial venom sack implants. May be a ball of hard silicone, may be a small bag of saline, as is used when dog owners want to put the appearance of balls back on their neutered dog.

Fun stuff, 'eh?

Jaffo

Jaffo

Here's a question, even though I know you don't perform the surgery, Jaffo. But what would one think would be the "safest" implant for snakes? I've heard of marbles, human grade tissue,
and silicone.
-tj

Is the venom gland it came with.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Now that we have that point made, I will say that it seems any form of implant can be rejected or perminantly accepted, depending on the quality of the procedure, skill level of the performer, and size and weight of the implant. Silicone moulded into the shape and size of the missing glands seems to work as well as any. After the first 6 months or so, the danger of secondary infection and rejection would have passed to the point that full acceptance can be expected. But I have heard of rejection even after such a long period, so who knows?. I don't like the idea of a soft silicone bag of saline, really. Wouldn't want something to rupture. All things considered, if the phisiology of the snake rejects an implant, no loss-- wasn't meant to be in there anyway. Almost certainly better for the snake to have no implant at all, if the glands must be removed.

So to answer the question, moulded silicone would be the lesser of the evils, I think.

If a safer, Nerf-coated venomous snake must be had by someone, maybe someone should come up with a less obtrusive venom inhibiter. Maybe someone could design a solution that blocks the development of venom with dangerous levels of toxicity. Or, genetically alters the tendency of the snakes developement. You- know... something a scientist could do, if science cared that much about rendering a hot snake 'cold'.

I have also heard that if an adult male homo sapien eats pineapple, then gets a BJ, it is often reported that the ejaculatory cocktail tastes better to the receiver. Of course I can only report that information as heresay.

Lets start feeding our hot snakes pineapple. Might do some magic.

Jaf

should be kept intact. I was merely curious on a physiological level that if a licensed vet were to actually do the surgery the right way and the head was to cave in, what they would most likely use that may be implanted for asthetic purposes. Any licensed vets in here that can comment on that?

You were correct regarding the lack of responses- with the exception of the arguments that I knew the original question would provoke. I have not had any professional replies emailed to me.

As for your question, it is my understanding that implants are only used on adults that have the surgery performed. Neonatal and juvenile snakes do not have implants due to their size. The implant would be very small at that time, but when the snake grew larger the implant would not and so there would still be resulting physical abnormalities. I can't imagine anyone wanting to do surgery twice... once as a juvenile and then again as an adult to place an implant.

I would have to completely disagree with the statement that a ductectomy is reliable. This is completely dependant upon whoever performs the procedure being competent and knowledgable in what they are doing. This is exactly the reason why we want to know how to determine the surgical procedure that was performed. When someone presents a snake to me and says it is a venomoid, I want to be darned sure I know what procedure was performed and how much I have to worry. I am not naive enough to assume that a venomoid snake is harmless, as that may not always be the case.

I didn't really expect to get an expert opinion back, and perhaps kingsnake.com was not the appropriate forum to look for one. Unfortunately I have had a hard time finding any professionals to consult for good advice regarding this issue. Perhaps that is because any ethical and moral bona-fide veterinarian wouldn't have anything to do with a procedure such as this. I can say that being a veterinary professional myself.

Thanks anyway.

I think you may be right in the lack of response by veterinarians is that they in general will avoid such an ethically debated procedure. If you are a vet then you must be familiar with the veterinary information network (www.vin.com). I would suggest you take your questions there as you will be almost guaranteed to have an educated ARAV member reply. I have to admit, that as a tech who regularly reads the message boards I've never seen this topic discussed yet.

"I didn't really expect to get an expert opinion back, and perhaps kingsnake.com was not the appropriate forum to look for one. Unfortunately I have had a hard time finding any professionals to consult for good advice regarding this issue. Perhaps that is because any ethical and moral bona-fide veterinarian wouldn't have anything to do with a procedure such as this. I can say that being a veterinary professional myself".

You hit the nail on the head with every word, especially the part with ethics and morals.
I learned alot from this thread, especially from the lack of knowledge or replies that zero venomoiders had to offer, just as I knew would happen.
Thanks,
tom

"I have also heard that if an adult male homo sapien eats pineapple, then gets a BJ, it is often reported that the ejaculatory cocktail tastes better to the receiver. Of course I can only report that information as heresay."

Come on now....tell the truth...

I find that there's demand for me to eat pineapple as often as I can.

How's that?

"cocktail" on your chin???

Not on MY chin. What were you aiming for?

J

Hello,

Elapids should have a full gland and duct removal. The ducts are so short (in relation to vipers) that they could easily regenerate.

The procedure used should be as simple as possible. The incision can be made through the muscle tissue on the roof of the mouth, or through the skin on the outside of the head where the glands should be directly below. Care needs to be taken to preserve the health and apperance of the snake.

I am not sure what you would need to do as far as tests to show what was removed, but you could always attempt to milk the snake or use a series of live rodents to test if the procedure was successful.

Please note scars are of no use in determining what procedure if any is done. I have some venomoids that you can't see a mark on and still look hot. At the same time one with a scar may have beed a failed operation by an amature, and could very well be hot still!

Hope that helps,
Steve Clark

Not for nothing, but aren't you all amateurs regardless if the surgery was successful or not?

By amature I mean they were not experienced. In all honesty I know that there are DVMs doing the procedure, but few can do a nice looking job. By professional it is more than anything experienced. The best way to get good at something is to practice! I don't do my own procedures, and it isn't something that is simple. There are a few people out there who have great success with the snakes they do (healthy snakes, no fatalities due to the procedure, and nice looking animals), but not everyone is so skilled. The biggest danger with venomoids is your "weekend warrior" looking to "get rich quick" and botching the job, hurting/killing the snake, or selling a still venomous snake as harmless.

The reptile business is a shady biz! Its tough to trust your life to someone just because you want to free handle your cobra! By the way, I don't advise free handling of any venomous species, hot or altered!

-Steve Clark

People who are not licensed veterinarians who perform these procedures for a fee are criminals. Anyone who would trust a procedure like this with their life is a fool. Put a fool and a criminal together and the outcome can't be good.

I don't understand the logic behind venomoids to begin with. The way I look at it, if you are afraid of venomous snakes, then keep a corn snake. However, if you MUST have a venomoid, the least you can do is make sure that the procedure is performed by someone who is qualified and has all of the appropriate instruments, anesthesia, sterile environment, and skills necessary to do the job humanely and efficiently. I've seen some real butchery performed by unqualified people and it just makes me sick.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson