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if i understand correctly this is how a creamsicle comes about. my question is, are they like that in the first clutch or do you have to breed the babies to similar babies?

i have a 7 year old great plains rat and a 6 year old normal corn that i think i am ready to breed. they are not too old correct? any pointers? my normal is around 46" and 282 g. is she ok to brumate? she seems healthy to me. i am going to brumate them starting nov 1 and bring them out around feb.
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a creamsicle also includes the amel gene, whithout the amel gene they are often refered to as rootbeer corns. You can brumate N.american colubrids at any age asuming they are in good health.

My understanding is that if you breed am emoryi with a normal corn, you WILL get creamsicles in the first generation. I take that to mean they are expressing incomplete dominance. It gets some coloration from the normal and some from the emoryi, and it just gets blended together instead of one dominating the other. I've thought of doing the same, but I've yet to find a good breeder size female emoryi for my male corn. Again, gotta love genetics!
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-JH

1.0 Amel Corn
1.0 Dot-Dash Cal King
0.1 50/50 Cal King
1.1 Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes
3.4 Baby Corns (Assorted Flavors)
0.0.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 Bullsnake
0.0.1 Texas Long-nose
1.1 Bearded Dragons

To get a creamsicle, you have to have all the following:

a) Emoryii blood (any percentage)

b) Corn blood (any percentage)

AND

c) Expressed amelanism

Breeding a normal to an emoryii will get you hybrids that are normal in coloration for that cross (what are often called rootbeer corns). In order for you to get creamsicles, the amel gene must be introduced to the mix.

If you breed a normal emoryii to a normal corn that is het for amel, you will get:

100% normally colored hybrids, with each hatchling having a 50% possibility of being het for amel (of course the hets will not look any different from their normal siblings).

If you breed a normal emoryii to an amel corn, you will get:

100% normally colored hybrids, with each one of them being 100% het for amel (again, these won't look any different than normals).

If you wait two to three years and breed a het amel hybrid to another het amel hybrid (produced by the emoryii to amel breeding outlined above), you should get:

25% normally colored hybrids, 50% normally colored hybrids het for amelanism, and 25% creamsicles.

You will not get creamsicles from breeding a normally colored emoryii to a normally colored corn, unless BOTH of them are het for amelanism, and in the case of the emoryii, that is not very likely. Creamsicle is simply a name to designate an animal that is amelanistic with emoryii blood in it. So, it is a case of simple recessive Mendelian genetics, and there is no aspect of the process that relies on one trait or another being dominant or co-dominant in any way.

Hope that helps...
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

creamsicle? 100% creamsicles?
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phflame

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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Darin,
Thanks for the correction. When I was first introduced to creamsicles, I thought that there must be some sort of amel involved... it just makes sense. But, the guy who explained it to me swore up and down that it is a case of incomplete dominance. I didn't really worry about it too much since my male corn is Amel anyways. But now it's nice to finally know the right answer. I'm thinking about skipping the waiting period and purchasing an Amel emoryi at some point. I know it's a bit more expensive that way, but Amel emoryii are gorgeous and worth the price, in my opinion. Thanks again for keeping me in check. Take care...
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-JH

1.0 Amel Corn
1.0 Dot-Dash Cal King
0.1 50/50 Cal King
1.1 Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes
3.4 Baby Corns (Assorted Flavors)
0.0.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 Bullsnake
0.0.1 Texas Long-nose
1.1 Bearded Dragons

Didn't mean to sound like I was keeping anyone "in check." Sorry, if i came off harsh!
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I didn't think you sounded harsh at all.
I thought you gave an excellent explination of creamsicle.
Especially for someone who doesn't really care for them....LOL
Your post about the amels was darn good also.
keep up the good work.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Darin,
You did not come off harsh at all. I was being 100% serious. Sometimes I think I know what I'm talking about, and it turns out I don't. I just like to offer my advice whenever possible. But, if it turns out to be bad advice, feel free to correct me whenever necessary. I don't offend easily. Take care...
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-JH

1.0 Amel Corn
1.0 Dot-Dash Cal King
0.1 50/50 Cal King
1.1 Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes
3.4 Baby Corns (Assorted Flavors)
0.0.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 Bullsnake
0.0.1 Texas Long-nose
1.1 Bearded Dragons

Just a note in reply to your mention that you would use albino emoryi in the cross. The very pretty amel version of emoryi would make great creamsicles - hope to introduce it to mine at some point when I can afford it - but it is not the same amel gene as the amel in corns. If you breed amel corn to amel emoryi you get all normals, het for both emoryi amel and corn amel. Sort of parallel to the situation with two different versions of albino boas.

Just wanted to warn you in case you didn't know - only issue is that it would create suprises in crossing the different creamsicle forms with each other.

mary v.

thanks for the explanation. do you have any pictures of what they would look like. i did a quick search on google and couldnt find any good pics.

n/p

Found a website that has a picture...

http://www.kingsnake.com/highsierra/htm/sp_corn_rootbear.htm

enjoy, I have no idea who's link it is, but hey, it's free advertising for them!
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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

thanks

I produced a clutch this year from a male creamsicle corn bred to a female great plains ratsnake. Parents completely compatable - no issues with accepting each other. Eggs and rootbeer babies (het for creamsicle - amel) were huge - typical of great plains ratsnakes.

Don't know how to attach more than one pic so here are parents - baby pics to follow

Rootbeer hatchlings before shed to show comparison with creamsicle from a cream X corn breeding - the creamsicle is a month old, the rootbeers just hatched!

mary v.

After first shed - they are quite a bit browner without the red of normal corns.

mary v.

Better idea of color and I think the heads look quite different from pure corns.

mary v.

I bred an emory to a normal corn last year and I got very large red emory babies. they looked like a great plains rat but had the reddish color like the corn. beautiful snakes.