Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was looking at the posts and couldnt help but notice that on the inbreeding question 3 great breeders all replied.

1.Anthony Caponetto
2.Sticky feet
3.RandBgeckos

First off I have done buisness with all three of these men ,In fact I own 2 Cresteds from each one. You can not do better in quality or service than these three.

Secondly it doesnt surprize me that a unusual(interesting) topic brought these three to thier keyboards ..Forums such as these are great for new people to learn whats right or wrong but must get a little boring for the experenced breeders amoung us.I see alot of information on these forums that range from a little off to horribly wrong .Sorting the good info from the bad might be one of the more difficult tasks for new people.Its a good idea to double check the information you recieve.When you see these mens names at the bottom of thier post you can pretty much count on the information without concern.

Down below I reposted thier posts so you can aquaint yourself with their info if you missed it the first time.One small thing I might add.. I happen to own 2 cresteds from Randys(R&B) that are from his wildcaught bloodline.2 cresteds are too few to decide for sure...but I can definatly say those 2 have grown faster than any other and I belive its from thier wild caught genes .
Pat

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As a rule, I try to pair animals that came from completely different sources, but I have no hesitation pairing siblings together if I know for a fact that their parents were completely unrelated.

About a year ago, I saw a crested gecko that had intense color, but also had a severely crooked spine. I was told by the owner that it was produced by pairing two nicely colored animals that came from the same breeder. He said that breeder had apparently only paid attention to color when pairing adults and neglected to add new blood to his line.

Another problem believed to be caused by inbreeding is small hatching size and/or weak hatchlings.

I haven't been breeding these guys long enough to tell you wether or not either of the above are true, but it makes sense to me that there's at least a little truth to both small size and deformities.

Of course, if a gecko is displaying any physical anomoly (that's not the result of an injury), regardless of it was caused by inbreeding, that's probably a gecko you want to avoid.

Having said all that, I've heard from numerous breeders that inbreeding isn't a problem unless you do it for more than 3-4 generations. The problem is, unless you buy geckos directly from the breeder, you never know how closely related their parents were.

I know there was no yes or no answer there for you, but hopefully that will give you a little insight.

-Anthony

Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

It all boils down to the fact that you never know when you'll run into a genetic defect.

I didn't mean to use 3-4 generations as a solid number because the reality is that you never know when you're going to discover a genetic abnormality. You could breed one line for 5 or 6 generations and have no problems at all, but you might pair up a first generation pair of siblings and stumble onto something cool like an albino or something undesirable such as deformed eyes.

You really never know, but when you start inbreeding over multiple generations, the odds of stumbling onto a defect are increased exponentially with each subsequent generation of inbreeding.

With that in mind, I won't say that inbreeding is a bad idea, but that you should know what you're working with, if for no other reason than just to know how the odds are stacked.

Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

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I have been breeding for 2 years. I am now producing 250 per year. I have never inbred any of my crested, but I didnt feel the need to. If I had a trait that was imperative for me to breed to get an enhancment or mutation I was looking for I would go for it. I would have to say 90% of my breeding groups are from Sandfire, with the other 10% coming from various other places. The various other places probably came from Sandfire also, but they just didnt know the history of the geckos parents.
Shawn
WWW.StickyFeetExotics.COM
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No offense, but that's exactly what I mean. 90% of your breeders came from the same place so wouldn't that mean inbreeding is occurring? I'm not saying that it is wrong or right, just stating that the concept of inbreeding in reptiles might be overrated. When working with a limited gene pool inbreeding will occur.

I invested in some geckos around 6 years ago from one breeder and then the next year from a different breeder about 600 miles apart. The purpose was to get a group that wasn't related. It turns out both breeders got there stock from the same guy and I didn't find this out until one of them ordered from me.

Again, this is just my opinion.

RandyS
R&B Geckos
Email: randbgeckos@adelphia.net

good post - i did find their information insightful and very helpful in forming my "newbie" ideas. i'm glad they, as well as others, put their 2 cents in as to what they think about inbreeding... i originally asked it just to see if it causes more genetic defects and i didn't think of the possibility that the ones i buy may have the possibility that they come from the same bloodline as what randy discussed in his post.

thanks again to everyone who responded and helped me with acquiring more information about crested geckos - since i pretty much am new to the crested gecko world.
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0.0.2 Fire Bellied Toads (Norman & Forman)
1.0.0 Fighting Fish (Blue Balls)
0.0.2 Goldfish (Lenny & Carl)
1.0.0 Black Lab / Pit Bull (Mikey)

I originally bought 2 cresteds from Paul Morlock from the New Jersey branch of Sandfire, and then another at Tinley Park last year which Paul said had come from the CA facility. I was hoping that would make these animals a bit further removed in bloodlines, but maybe that's just wishful thinking. I, too, have purchased 6 really fine animals from Shawn at Sticky Feet, realizing that in all probability, most of their roots were also at Sandfire back through the generations. Now I have 2 gorgeous youngsters from Anthony which I'm hoping to eventually add to the mix. Are wild caught animals' decendants easy to find, or even necessarily desirable aside from wanting to avoid inbreeding? Does anyone know whether Philippe de Vosjoli (http://www.giantgeckos.com/crested.htm) sells the decendants of wild-caught geckos? This really is a valuable resource when the top-quality breeders check in.
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Terri
4:8:9 crested geckos: Popcorn, Goldfish, Harley, Bear, Big Red, Olive, Smudge, Blackie, Belle, Brilliant, Tina, Brick, Avis & Subtle, Toni(y), Kermit, Zipper, ZigZag & Scallops, Bullseye & Tigerhead

Terri,

Just FYI, All of the geckos that Paul Morlock sold for Sandfire were produced at the ranch in California.

Philippe works pretty closely with Allen at Sandfire. From what I know, they've both got a number of wild caught Cresteds in their colletions.

-Anthony
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

Thanks, Anthony,
I guess maybe I assumed that the first 2 I purchased from Paul were bred at the New Jersey facility, but you're right, when there are thousands of cresteds involved, getting 2 very closely related would be a long shot. The main thing is that everything I have looks great and is healthy. I appreciate your input.
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Terri
4:8:9 crested geckos: Popcorn, Goldfish, Harley, Bear, Big Red, Olive, Smudge, Blackie, Belle, Brilliant, Tina, Brick, Avis & Subtle, Toni(y), Kermit, Zipper, ZigZag & Scallops, Bullseye & Tigerhead

Allen at Sandfire Dragon Ranch has (what I believe to be) the largest collection of Rhacodactylus in the world. That said, it's probably one of the most genetically diverse. Believing that breeding two Sandfire animals together would be considered inbreeding would be a very obtuse statement.

Allen was one of the first breeders (if not the first) to establish R. ciliatus in the United States and was the first to produce them in large volume. When you hear someone talk about this guy's stock vs. that guy's stock, you need to realize that in all reality, they probably ALL came from animals in Allen's collection at some point.

BTW, Thanks for the kind words, Pat.

-Anthony
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

Absolutely correct. There's only a handful of folks (Repashy, de Vosjoli, Fast, etc.) who collected/imported them many years ago. The crested gecko (and other Rhacodactylus for that matter) gene pool has been stagnant for years.