Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thought this might make for some interesting threads. Which family of venomous sakes are the most deadly, vipers or elapids? Obviously we are talking about neurotoxin v. hemo toxin. So which kills faster? does more damage? are u most likely to die from if bitten?

Which snake is the most deadly in the world?

Not talking about the snake that kills the most people (but that would be an interesting fact) Im talking about if you had the exact same amount of venom from every venomous snake in the world and injected that same amount into the exact same human/rat/whatever, which snake the claim the title as most deadly/potent. All views and opinions welcome. Take any angle you like.

First, it's pretty well accepted that the worst of the elapids are FAR deadlier than the worst of the vipers, with the inland taipan's venom being at the top, and being 10 times more powerful than the closest viper (this point being a little more open to debate) plus several times greater venom yield (compared to the vipers with the most potent venoms, like saw-scales and such, not compared to the larger vipers with massive amounts of weaker venom).

Rating them based on injecting the same amount of venom would give you some really skewed results since some of the snakes with the most poetent venoms in the world have venom yields so small (less than 1/100th of some vipers) that they are not particulary dangerous to humans.

Again, the taipan's venom tests as most potent againts mice, but of course it's tough finding human volunteers to test it on under controlled circumstances, and thus there is some debate about how well the mouse results simulate potency against humans.

I don't know if I'd agree that elapids are FAR deadlier than any viper, I'd rate a bushmaster with any elapid.

This is always a tough matter to debate because there are so many variables and intepretations as to what is considered to be the "most deadly". Factors such as actual venom yield and potency, proximity to human habitation, temperment, type of venom (and some vipers have neurotoxic venom so its not that clear cut), actual bite cases, and on and on are all factors that must be considered. Saw scaled vipers, though certainly not one of the "deadliest" in terms of venom potency and yield would be considered one of the "deadliest" in terms of the number of people killed by their bite. They are also highly aggressive creatures that are quick to bite. So, too, is the Russell's viper who kills literally thousands of people annually. Then, you look at the Inland Taipan who lives in fairly arid climates who may not come accross people too often....but their bite is certainly the deadliest in terms of venom potency. The thought of getting tagged by an 8' gaboon viper, and its haemotoxic effects, is quite scary compared to getting "tapped" by a taipan and its subsequent neurotoxic affects but both usually result in a fatal envenomation and the taipan probably much more rapid (but perhaps far less painful). So, trying to determine what is the deadliest is relative on how you interpret the linquistics of defining "deadliest" and how it is applied in whatever context you choose.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest, IL

Well said. Another observation we have is that with life support we can save victims of neurotoxic venom with less antiserum and sometimes none ( may risk organ failure in some bites).
Viper and pit vipers we need to stop bleeding out in the victim. So you may need large amounts of antiserum to treat their bite.
Both are dangerous and there are no degrees of death. Dead is dead ,whether it is a 22 or a 45 ,it is bullet placement. Same is true with venomous animals it is location of bite (body, country and quickest medical care)

Jim Harrison

While reading this thread I same conclusion. Rob & Jim, hit the nail square on the head. Dead is dead! Case closed. Who cares how you got there; just worry how to avoid it.

We should not waste time and electrons (good thing they can be recycled)on such useless exersizes.

We should be spending our time learning (discussing) how to NOT be a snakebite statistic or how to properly take care of the specimens we keep.

However, It is useful to discuss actual snakebites to learn what went wrong and the patterns of treatment given.

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You can take the animal out of the jungle but you can never take the jungle out of the animal.

Al

This is the most sensible topic brought up within the past month..LOL. Sure beats venomoid debates.
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Chad Bachman

Chad..this is true.
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You can take the animal out of the jungle but you can never take the jungle out of the animal.

Al

That's what I was going to say...

Besides, I would say there's a big difference between "dead in 10 minutes" and "dead in 4 hours" if you're 2 hours away from help...

But yes, far better to just not get bit...

In the early 1980's, Richard Davis and I published the cobra scale, which compared any venom with that of the well known Indian cobra. Cobra venom is assigned the value of 1 and the toxicity of other venoms are compared to this venom. The following expanded table is the result of this comparison.

Inland Taipan
Oxyuranus microlepidotus 50.0
Common Brown Snake
Pseudonaja textilis 12.5
Taipan
Oxyuranus scutellatus 7.8
Reevesby Is. Tiger Snake
Notechis ater niger 5.1
Common Tiger Snake
Notechis scutatus 4.2
Western Tiger Snake
Notechis ater occidentalis 4.0
Beaked sea snake
Enhydrina schistosa 2.9
Chappell Is. Tiger Snake
Notechis ater serventyi 1.8
Common death adder
Acanthophis antarcticus 1.5
Western Brown Snake
Pseudonaja nuchalis 1.5
Copperhead
Austrelaps superbus 1.0
Dugite
Pseudonaja affinis 0.9
Stephens banded snake
Hoplocephalus stephensi 0.4
Rough scaled snake
Tropidechis carinatus 0.5
Spotted black snake
Pseudechis guttatus 0.3
King Brown Snake
Pseudechis australis 0.3
Collets snake
Pseudechis colletti 0.2
Red bellied black snake
Pseudechis porphyriacus 0.2
Small-eyed snake
Cryptophis nigrescens 0.2
Whip snake
Demansia olivacea

those look like all australian snakes

They are but that is all that I could find. However, I was led to believe that of the 25 deadliest snakes in the world, 21 or so resided in Australia. I may be wrong but like I said this is what I was led to believe.

Go to the LH50 section of my site, and no Australia does not have the top 10 or 25. The taipans and brown snakes are much more toxic than any other land or sea snakes but then the rest of the Australian snakes start falling in line with the rest of the world.

Cheers
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
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Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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http://www.venomdoc.com

>>Thought this might make for some interesting threads. Which family of venomous sakes are the most deadly, vipers or elapids? Obviously we are talking about neurotoxin v. hemo toxin. So which kills faster? does more damage? are u most likely to die from if bitten?
>>
>>Which snake is the most deadly in the world?
>>
>>Not talking about the snake that kills the most people (but that would be an interesting fact) Im talking about if you had the exact same amount of venom from every venomous snake in the world and injected that same amount into the exact same human/rat/whatever, which snake the claim the title as most deadly/potent. All views and opinions welcome. Take any angle you like.

I really don't think the comparison between Viperids and Elapids is a valid one. There are many of both groups that are likely to produce a fatality if the bite is untreated. As someone pointed out earlier (I think it was Rob), it doesn't much matter if it took 15 minutes or 30 minutes or 6 hours to kill you, if you are dead, you are dead. Cancel Christmas.

I think a more valid comparison would be which ones actually kill more people every year. Many things play into that, such as size, temperament, toxicity, how common they are in populated areas, available medical care, etc. I think, all in all, Viperids probably kill more people every year. In the U.S., it would be Rattlesnakes, in Central and South America probably Lance Headed Vipers, In Africa probably Saw-Scaled Vipers and Puff Adders, in Southeast Asia probably Russell's Vipers, etc. The only exception I can think of would be Australia and the surrounding regions where it would necessarily be Elapids.

I guess the correct answer is whichever one bites and kills you is the most deadly one to you.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

The one that bites you & causes your death.

I would much rather be bitten by a Dendroaspis or Oxyuranus species than by an animal with a primarily cytotoxic venom, you can't replace body parts!!! Some of the worst bites I've seen in photos, were of Spitting cobras (Naja spp.), Cotalus, Echis, Bothrops, Daboia, ect.., and I have been tagged by Naja naja & Dendroaspis & the one that left its mark was the Naja naja(Pakistan cobra) wich left me with part of an index finger missing.

Respect them all, they all have the ability to knock you down, and as already said......Dead is Dead.
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Chad Bachman

Which is the most dangerous also has alot to do with how fast you can get treatment & how you body handles it. There is no 100% correct answer to your question, and probably never will be.

JMHO
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Chad Bachman

Chad:

The big problem with some of the elapid bite like Oxyuranus is that the presynaptic neurotoxins in the venom don't reverse so easily, even with A/V. You might survive but the neurological deficit would be significant. Which is worst...a rotton hand or useless neurons?

Al
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You can take the animal out of the jungle but you can never take the jungle out of the animal.

Al

Yes this can happen with Oxyuranus bites, but it's not very common for it to have an indefinate effect. Amputated body parts are forever.

My above statment was only if medical help is available immediatley, because if medical help was not available within a couple hours I would rather rot some then die before reaching medical help.
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Chad Bachman

But it makes sense because everything said is a correct answer.
I still think the question about "if the same amount of venom is pumped into the same spot on a person, which is the deadliest" question could have gotten more thought to their question.
I also think it may have been cool to bring in other toxins. Since I mainly know about snakes it would have been neat to hear if anyone knows what animal has the strongest drop for drop toxin. Going by strickly LD-50 charts I still think the inland taipan holds strongest doesnt it? And the high yield just marks it well above the rest. But I know Gila monsters have an amazingly high LD-50 and I am surprised there are not more deaths from them despite they have a hard time with facilitation. I would also think if that cone snail knocked as much toxin in you as a taipan you would be pretty much dead faster than any snake bite. I know this question will never truely be answered but why don't we play with our imagination and the "what if" aspect to the question. (please don't say even then we don't know because we can't try it on humans and since all snakes don't pump the same amount of toxin it isnt a valid question. This has been a long thread and has enough of that already. I said imagination : )

>>But it makes sense because everything said is a correct answer.
>>I still think the question about "if the same amount of venom is pumped into the same spot on a person, which is the deadliest" question could have gotten more thought to their question.
>>I also think it may have been cool to bring in other toxins. Since I mainly know about snakes it would have been neat to hear if anyone knows what animal has the strongest drop for drop toxin. Going by strickly LD-50 charts I still think the inland taipan holds strongest doesnt it? And the high yield just marks it well above the rest. But I know Gila monsters have an amazingly high LD-50 and I am surprised there are not more deaths from them despite they have a hard time with facilitation. I would also think if that cone snail knocked as much toxin in you as a taipan you would be pretty much dead faster than any snake bite. I know this question will never truely be answered but why don't we play with our imagination and the "what if" aspect to the question. (please don't say even then we don't know because we can't try it on humans and since all snakes don't pump the same amount of toxin it isnt a valid question. This has been a long thread and has enough of that already. I said imagination : )

The answer is that there is no one answer. If you take a an amount of Taipan venom that would be sufficient to kill a man and injected him with it, it would kill him. If you took the same amount of North American Copperhead venom and injected another man in the same place, it would not kill him (it would probably anger him, though). So, you've proven what we already know. Taipan venom is more toxic than Copperhead venom. Big waste of time, there.

On the other hand, if you injected one of them with a lethal dose of Gaboon venom and then injected the other in the same place with the same amount of Taipan venom, they would both die. Does that mean that Taipan venom and Gaboon venom are equally deadly? Yes and no. If you get a lethal dose, both will kill you. So, in that respect they are equally deadly. But, there is a difference in the drop-for-drop toxicity. We already knew that, too. Another big waste of time.

The Cone Snail possesses one of the most potent venoms known to man, drop-for-drop. If it were capable of injecting as much venom as a Gaboon, it would obviously kill you. So what? It is capable of killing you anyway even with the small amount of venom it can inject. Same deal with the Box Jellyfish.

What is it, exactly, that you are trying to prove? You can't prove anything at all by saying "Well, what if a Pygmy Rattler could inject as much venom as an Eastern Diamondback?" The fact is, that he can't. Unless he has been exposed to massive amounts of radioactivity he never will. So, it's a moot point.

The bottom line is that any snake that is capable of killing a human is potentially just as deadly as any other. Even though a Taipan is considered one of the most dangerous snakes on Earth and a Cottonmouth is considered potentially deadly but not as deadly as a Taipan, the fact remains that people have survived Taipan bites and people have died from Cottonmouth bites.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

THat was not my point. There was no point to it, only that there was no REAL answer to his question so why not play the "what if" game. Imagination and just for fun was my post. Waste of time? to some but I think sometimes we can get away from the real world and just have some fun thinking. Either way, you responded EXACTLY how I asked people not to for this post.

So does that mean that everyone should limit their responses to what you want to hear? No one should simply post their opinion unless it agrees with the format that you have prescribed for everyone's responses? If that's the case, then it seems to me that you should already know what you want to read, so why don't you just post it yourself?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

This was meant in the kindest way possible. But I specifically stated please do not post responses like you did. How is that arguable? What was what I did not want to see so naturally I would be a little upset to see it. You can do what you want but i just don't get why someone would get all worked up over what was supposed to be a light hearted post.

>>This was meant in the kindest way possible. But I specifically stated please do not post responses like you did. How is that arguable? What was what I did not want to see so naturally I would be a little upset to see it. You can do what you want but i just don't get why someone would get all worked up over what was supposed to be a light hearted post.

I didn't get worked up, I just told you if you didn't like the post I made, then do it yourself. I don't think you can really dictate to someone in here what to say or not to say in their posts. You were asking for people's opinion, and mine is that your question doesn't really have an answer. If you don't like what someone says in a post, simply ignore it. Problem solved.

You seemed to know exactly what you wanted to see, but apparently no one else does. So, my suggestion is still to post it yourself.

No hard feelings...no harm, no foul.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I really didnt care, I saw the persons question was wokred around in all directions and it wasnt what they wanted so I figured I would give it a try and see if i could word it in a way that maybe got closer to what he wanted. I failed at that lol. I thought asking as a "what if" kind of way and being we all know it isnt possible and doesnt matter and cant be asnwered I figured we could try and use our imagination on it. No big deal..this got dumb anyway.

LD50's have little to do with how deadly an animal is, it just gives an idea of how many mice it can kill with a given amount. It would take too long to explain everything, and I hate typing, thats why my replies are usually short.LOL.
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Chad Bachman

but that would be about the best we could work with on that question wouldnt it? As far as drop for drop venom goes? We have no human research.

Here's an article related to that topic. Makes some points, blurrs some others, but trys to point out LD50 isn't everything. Saves you some typing anyway.
The Modern Myth or Are You A Man Or A Mouse?

You are right DEAD is DEAD. And 60 mph is 60mph, but that doesnt stop people from seeing which sports car can do it the fastest or least amount of time. Im not suggesting that we try to inject venom into people and see who dies the fastest. I just wanted to see what people think, and try to create a discussion on something other than VENOMOIDS that would be of interest to many.

Something that I have not seen yet is a comparison of the different toxins. By this I mean that from the time of the bite until you die, what exactly would a person/prey experience.
If people can emphasize on a scale of 1-10 the different levels of pain that might be associated with certain effects that would be great. That is if anyone knows.

I tried to re-word the post and get the same thing you did because I could tell that is what you wanted. Nobody wanted to think about it and they would rather debate. Sorry.