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I hatched these on July 17th. They are over 150 grams, they have just started on adult mice, so they should really take off on their weights.
I wondering if the would qualify as "blonde" or "lemon" pastels?

Don't know but they are real nice.
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RicK @ BbI

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but what line of pastel are their parents? they will be their parents line of pastel. Blonde, stonewashed, and lemon are each their own indidvidual line seperate from the "normal" pastel (bell, graziani). What were the parents sold to you as? if you bought them as "pastels" with no known lineage then they are probably bell or graziani's. BUT if i was looking for pastels and saw those i would say "Screw the line those are amazing". Nicest looking pastels i've ever seen.
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Lemon Pastel is a line of Pastel....same goes for Blonde........you do not get Lemons or Blondes from a "regular" Pastel line. They "qualify" if one of the parents is of a specific line.

Beautiful Pastels!.....but what line of pastel is the parent??

Didn't the stonewash line just pop up out of another line? What is the history/origin of the blond and lemon lines? I wonder if there is any difference in the actual pastel mutation or if it is other genes in the lines that differentiate them. If it's not the actual pastel gene that varies then you in theory could pick up the right extra genes to make a stonewashed/lemon/blond from breeding any pastel to the right female with the right extra genes. Or if the difference requires being homozygous for an extra gene, maybe a bright yellow or fading gene, then line breeding would be required.

How would you classify the pastel (i.e. het and not homozygous) offspring from crossing different lines (i.e. blond X regular Graziani)? It will be interesting to try to figure out what genes make the difference. People talk about the normals from some lines looking better than usual so I suspect that some of the "premium" pastel lines owe there looks to a separate gene bred into that line and not just a different or superior mutation of the pastel gene.

I don't believe there is a stonewash line.....stonewashed looking pastels have been produced from pastel breedings and these stonewashed looking pastels did not derive from a stonewashed pastel. Yes, T&M produced stonewashed pastels from their Ruppel pastel, but Bryan produced stonewashed pastels from a stonewashed pastel that is not from a Ruppel pastel.......jmo..this does not make it a line of pastel. Stonewashed pastels can originate from a stonewashed pastel or from a "regular" pastel bred to the *right* normal. And the same goes for some pastels being prettier than others. It all depends on the quality of the pastel parent and the normal parent, but the fact is........they brown out. Everyone knows this. Lemons and Blondes do not.....lemons being the brighter of the two.

A pretty pastel bred to a high yellow (for ex.) does not produce lemons nor blondes.....yes, 90% of the time outstanding pastels are produced, but it does not change the line of the pastel.

As far as crossing the lines.......why would you do that?? There's nothing wrong with the pastel, but crossing the lines would only deminish the intensity of a lemon or blonde....again..jmo.

To make my arguement plausible about the stonewash theory. Bryan's stonewash pastel was produced by a Graziani line bred to a faded "Mojaveish" looking female.....someone else (sorry, don't remember who you are) produced an awesome stonewashed looking pastel from a Graziani line bred to a faded female this year. Stonewashed Supers and Pastels have been produced from "regular" pastel breedings that were not coined "Ruppel Stonewash Pastels"..........this is why I don't believe stonewash to be a line of it's own. It's simply a description of an appearance.

"As far as crossing the lines.......why would you do that?? There's nothing wrong with the pastel, but crossing the lines would only deminish the intensity of a lemon or blonde....again..jmo."

I guess I would be tempted to cross different pastel lines in the hopes that the babies would help me figure out what causes the differences. I'm suspicious that even lemon and blond might be like stonewash appears to be ... the exact same pastel mutation but with other genes bred into the line to make them look better. The other genes might be more rare than the ones to create a stonewash and if they greatly improve the quality then they are certainly worth a premium. Maybe all the "types" of pastel are actually combos of pastel and various other enhancing genes. I just have an academic interest in knowing the genetics behind the difference. I take it you think it's a difference in the actual pastel gene it's self in blonds and lemons? It would be interesting to know the source of those two lines (did they start with a separate imported founder pastels or not). The one piece of evidence that has me leaning toward separate genes enhancing the exact same pastel gene to create lemon or blond is some posts I've seen about really nice looking "normal" siblings. I'm thinking these got the enhancing gene(s) but not the pastel gene.

In a way it would make those types even more valuable as they would be combos. However, you wouldn't expect them to necessarily breed true if the enhancing genes aren't linked closely to the pastel gene. Does a lemon or blond pastel male bred to your average normal female always produce lemon or blond pastel babies or are some of the pastel offspring more normal pastel looking? Figuring out how many genes are involved would help predict such outcomes.

The 2 males pictured are from a "Bell" pastel. I bought him in January (this year) as a late '02 at 680 grams. He turned out to be a very picky eater. In 6 months he ate only 3 times, but his weight stayed around 725 grams. In March I put him with 2 different females, why not, he wasn't eating! In May I got 2 clutches! 6 from the first female, and 8 from the second. 3 eggs from the second went bad with in a week. I ended up with 2 pastels in each of the clutches 1.1 in each! The male I bought still wasn't eating, so I broke down and started him on gerbils, but at least he'll put on some weight. I have more than 2 waiting females this year.

Thanks for the feedback on the babies, I am taking them to the Tinley show this weekend. I needed to confirm my suspicions on their quality! I will up their price. I know it sounds crazy but I'm going to try for 2K. I'll post how it goes.