Reptile & Amphibian Forums

can someone post a good diet for a sulcata tortiose? i went to sulcata waystation but they say to just feed grass, well what if grass is not an option really? i have tied timothy hay but the sulcata seems to ignore it, any suggestions are greatly appreciated. right now he is eatina mush that compromises timothy hay,carrots,cactus pad and a little of mustard greens. any suggestions for a better diet please?

Grasses and weed are the best diet for sulcatas, but if that's possible, you can offer your tort dandelion (many grocery stores sell them nowadays), endive, turnip green, collards, kale (small amount, high in oxalic acid), grape leaves, mulberry leaves, hibiscus leaves & flowers, nasturtism leaves & flowers, rose petals, pumpkin, squash etc. Turtlecafe sells a lot of seeds that you can grow indoor in planter boxes for the winter. None of my torts would eat the timothy hay by itself, finely chop the hay and mix it with the other greens.

HTH

All kidding aside...
You can't beat the stuff as a supplement to the greens/grasses and (this is probably what you are looking for) it is an easy balanced diet that is readily available.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

never heard of the stuff? does it work? i looked it up on the net, seems interesting? but it says it has soy bean in it isn't that bad for sulcatas? has anyone else ever used this diet and if so what are the results? just dunno if i trust a pellet diet? would this be as good as a fresh diet? sorry for all the q's just trying to decide if i wanna use it or not thnx for any info

Oh yeah, how can I forget about the Mazuri chow!? I feed Mazuri to my sulcata a couple times a week to vary his diet mainly in the winter when my greens aren't growing fast enough to feed. They love this stuff!

with all the goodies mentioned...it's down to you and your tort to call the shots now, so look @ da poops and go accordingly

I've been using it for about 4 or 5 years now and I still wonder why the results are so good. The tortoise diet has been in use in zoos for over 20 years.

Some people base their judgement on how certain foods effect humans. That's a good starting point but is not really valid here.

The point is to try and look at all your actions within reason. If someone says it's bad... or good it's up to you to verify the information. Almost all of this stuff is opinion in one form or another.

My opinion on this particular diet is based on 30 years of hunting for that right diet for my tortoises and I think I've found it. Only time will tell.

Keep in mind that this does not seem to be a stand alone diet and should be fed with greens and grasses.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

From Mazuri.com on their tortoise food:

Ingredients
Ground soybean hulls, ground corn, ground oats, dehulled soybean meal, wheat middlings, cane molasses, brewers dried yeast, soybean oil, wheat germ, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, salt, DL-methionine, choline chloride, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (vitamin K), pyridoxine hydrochloride, d-alpha tocopheryl acetate (natural source vitamin E), cholecalciferol (vitamin D3), biotin, calcium pantothenate, ethoxyquin (a preservative), vitamin A acetate, riboflavin, L-lysine, nicotinic acid, thiamin mononitrate, cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12), folic acid, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate, sodium selenite.

So there is a lot of soy, corn, and wheat products in it.

Feeding Directions
Feed 1-4% of body weight per Tortoise per day. It is not necessary to wet the diet, although this may help to acclimate tortoises to the diet. Feed consumption will vary with temperature. Feed with good quality grass hay. Fresh fruits and vegetables (less than 20% by weight of total diet) may also be provided if desired.

Notice that you are directed to feed this item every day. If you have a 50 lb sulcata, you are supposed to give it 0.5 to 2.0 pounds (1-4% of body weight) of Mazuri in addition to hay, fruits and veggies. Last time this topic came up, it appeared that no one on the forum was following these instructions. Everyone (including me) fed the item as an occassional supplement, not as recommended. Now at zoos or large breeding facilities they might use it more often.

I decided that soy/corn/wheat ingredients indicated that Mazuri, like many pet food manufacturers, had taken the standard pet food base materials (soy/corn/wheat) and added enough vitamins and minerals to make it acceptable. It is barely different than the foods they've made for herbivorous mammals (see the website). I no longer use Mazuri for my russians and leopards.

If you take the ingredients out of context I guess you can argue that it is bad for them but to give a more complete picture I would think you would first have to give the proportions and then, maybe, give the reason why any one of the ingredients listed is bad in the proportion that is listed for the animal based on a reference or experience.

I still don't see where soy hulls can do harm. My guess is that this is used as a source of fiber which is not digested anyway.

As to the soy and corn meal... an animal requires specific dietary needs. Does it really matter what the source of the dietary needs come from? I would think that the ratio of the specific ingredient.

My rational is that these are the tops of the plants. On observing herbiverous desert herps in the wild it was interesting to note that they browsed on the tops of plants during the dry season which is when all the leaves are all dried out and all that is left is mostly dry stems and seed pods.

Finally, if you can achieve the growth you are looking for without using the Mazuri or any other diet I don't see the point of using it. As I said, it gives me the results I've been looking for after 30 years of hunting and playing around with diets. I'm looking for efficiency and not what I believe the animal needs. To put it a different way, I let the animals show me what it needs based on a long period of trial and error.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

My lack of enthusiasm for Mazuri does involve the ingredients:

1) Soy, corn, and wheat are calcium poor items with other "anti-nutrient" substances. Can't find my Tortoise Trust feeding manual (I'm sure that'd impress you , EJ :->.), but these items are supposedly high in things like goitrogens, oxalates, and other items that interfere with absorption of minerals and other nutrients. That has been stated in other, non-TT sources. Even if we only know for now that these anti-nutrients are harmful (in excess) to humans or other mammals, it doesn't mean that they are beneficial to tortoises. In fact, lacking any knowledge on how they effect tortoises, it hardly seems logical to assume that it's OK for them. Now maybe Mazuri has counterbalanced the effects of the supposed anti-nutrients by adding extra vitamins and minerals. Since no one is reporting harmful effects, I assume Mazuri pellets are doing no harm. The old "it hasn't killed 'em yet" endorsement.

2) Soy/corn/wheat is the base of many of Mazuri's zoo foods (along with molasses for some reason). It's the base of many dog, cat and other reptile foods. There's nothing special about it. My guess is that Mazuri and other pet food companies use soy/corn/wheat as a matter of convenience. Cheap and easy to obtain items. I used Pretty Pets and RepCal tort/iguana foods for awhile. It had a slightly different list of ingredients, but the nutrient profile was about the same. Mazuri is just another pet food with slightly different ingredients that has been re-packaged and advertised as good for tortoises.

My final response to the product is: Yawn. It ain't too bad, but it ain't so good. Put some food coloring and fruit smell on it, and it isn't much different than Pretty Pets or RepCal. Aside from the research to indicate animals don't explode on contact :-> I can't see any reason to by it over the other products I mentioned, or to buy any of them at all.

I'll just stick to "not killing" my tortoises with weeds and greens. With the seasonal variation of what grows in my yard and what I get from the store, they don't see the same items year round, which I hope helps save them from any imbalances. And I add vitamin mineral supplements as insurance.

Why not use Mazuri? Uhhh. Why? I don't know.

ok, so do they carry the mazuri diet at like petco or petsmart or do i order it online? so what would everyone say is a good green to feed my hatchling sulcata? besides grass and weeds, like nustard greens and etc. also i haven't heard anything about squash? are these good or bad? thnx for all the replies

That is a cute box turtle. Is it a 3-toed?
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Kelly Wood

1.1 Cherry Head Redfoots
1.0 Brazillian Redfoots
0.0.2 Leopard tortoises
1.1 Sandfire Bearded Dragons
1.0 Maliuromastyx
0.2 Dogs
2.2 Parakeets
1.3.1 Eastern box turtles
2.6.1 three-toed box turtles
0.2 white, black tail japenese bantams

yep, thats george, my buddy found him roaming in a school yard, we think he was someones pet, because not many turtles roam around in southern cali near the beach. i would post pics of my baby sulcata, but currnetly don't have a digital camera, left that in cali when me and the wife moved to arizonia! oh well,

I hope to high heaven this is not the Sulcata you are talking about... although boxies do like Mazuri.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

...but a pretty one

lol. nope thats just my old three toed named george the sulcata is much smaller, doesn't eat as much ................yet!! lol

...variety is the key and see the outcome yourself (watch that p**p like i said)

an exerpt from a Vet that specializes in nutrition shows that all fiber isn't equal:

"The issue about forage length isn't a gimmick either. The cells of the lower bowel receive about 50% of their nutrition from the nutrients in ingesta (and 50% from the blood stream). They pecifically need beta-hydroxybutyrate (a short-chain fatty acid that derives from the fermentation of fiber in the lower bowel). One can compare fermentation rates between pellets and the fiber lengths we use, and see a significant difference. The differences means that tortoises on our foods have healthier bowels, which translates into better stools, better abilities to resist and control parasite infestations, better energy metabolism, and better control of nitrogen metabolism (and hence kidney
health). Moreover, more water is held in the lower bowel when they're fed the longer length forages, which helps again with water balance and hence kidney function.?

And a bit about the ingredients:

"Mazuri and similar diets are formulated by those trained in animal science / agriculture nutrition. The diets use ingredients from the livestock industry, use variable formulations (ingredients are varied depending on the costs at the day of purchase), and the nature of the pelleting process is such that forages must be in meal form (eg finely ground) which is less healthy and less natural for the tortoises' lower bowel,
compared to longer length forages. In other words, the decisions made about formulations, ingredients, diet form, even packaging are based on constraints on the pellet machinery, constraints on available of ingredients cheap enough for use in the livestock industry, and constraints on the formulators knowledge
and goals for the diet.

Susan Donoghue, VMD, DACVN "

Thanks for bringing this point up.

Dr. Donoghue probably is the most experienced person in the field of herp nutrition but your excerpt is from a sales pitch to market her product so it is probably a little biased.

As to the ingredients varying depending on market availability, I've been told this is not true by one of the formulators of the diet for the Mazuri diet.

The formulator of the Mazuri diet that I've been in contact with seems to be very well informed in the physiology and needs of the critters that each of the diets are made for.

I also fail to see how monetary value guarantees nutritional value.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

PS
"Finally, if you can achieve the growth you are looking for without using the Mazuri or any other diet I don't see the point of using it. As I said, it gives me the results I've been looking for after 30 years of hunting and playing around with diets. I'm looking for efficiency and not what I believe the animal needs. To put it a different way, I let the animals show me what it needs based on a long period of trial and error."

efficiency=easy

I prefer to base diets on physiology and research

Catch ya later ed

I guess this falls under the relm of theory or practice.
One is what some think and one is what some do.
Sorry if this upsets some folk.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

...hope all torts out there get a good laugh

That Mazuri tortoise diet is high in protein. Grassland tortoises (i.e sulcata, leopard, desert, etc...) need a diet that is lower in protein, less that 10%. I would suggest trying Ectotherm's Grassland Tortoise Yummies. (ectotherm.com/ect/grasslandtortoise.htm) It has all of the grasses mixed in with the cubes, and the tortoises really like it. I have three leopards and one sulcata and they eat it readily plus I give them collard greens as a treat a few times a month.

You will still need to supplement their diet with calcium and vitamins. Ectotherm has calcium with natural veggie flavors that I use on most feedings, plus I use Herptivite by Rep-Cal on every third feeding. If you don't have a good source of UVB lighting, like natural sunlight, I would recommend using Rep-Cal Calcium w/ Vitamin D3; this is essential in their ability to synthesis calcium into a usable form.

Hope this clarified the sulcata dietary requirments a bit. If you have any other questions you can e-mail me at tommymx@ksu.edu

Miles Thompson