Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I will be breeding my normale female to my 50% ph pied male. Is it true that if you look at the tail of the het pied and see a solid or semi-solid black line going paralell on the left and right side that its a better chance that it is a true het and on a ph? Also if it is a true het and I do breed the two what will the outcome be het wise?

Tyler

Ken H. gave a good example so I will just copy it here.

het pied X normal
1/2 normal, and 1/2 hets. Since the hets are indistinguishable from the normals, they're said to be 50% possible hets

het pied X het pied
1/4 pied , 1/4 normal, and 1/2 het. Two out of every three normal-looking offspring are theoretically hets, hence they are 66% possible hets

pied X het pied
1/2 pied , and 1/2 hets (these are deemed to be 100%, since there's no statistical chance of them being normal)

pied X pied
all offspring would be pied

As far as the marker, it sounds like most hets have it and alot of possible hets have it. But to determine if your animal is a het just by its markings is not possible.
-----
www.NEWReptiles.com

I have a poss het male that has the marker.... he also sires some of the best markers I have ever seen. But they are still just markers..... Some of them have them some of them dont.... they are still poss poss hets. I have some cb.....ch.....w/c... hets for other morphs that have this trait.... its nice to think that all the markers I have will turn out to be het pied but thats just not possible.

Breed him...keep ALL the females and breed them back to him or a 100% het pied (by the time your females are big enough they should be about $200 each) if you get pieds then your 50%er is a het if you dont then he is a normal.

Hope this helps
Raul

"As far as the marker, it sounds like most hets have it and alot of possible hets have it. But to determine if your animal is a het just by its markings is not possible."
-----
www.NEWReptiles.com

It seems to me that it has a lot of potential given how often it's seen in hets. I guess the big fly in the ointment is if it is seen in non hets. We know that some hets don't have it so not seeing it can't eliminate the possibility that it's a het. If there are some normals with the exact same thing then you also can't be sure a possible het with the marker is a het. I guess I would like to know if there is a way to tell the look-alikes from the real thing. Even without indistinguishable look-alikes a possible het with the marker will never be a sure thing.

I've bred two different 50% chance hets with the marker and they have passed it to almost exactly half of their offspring. I'm concentrating on getting the females with the marker grown up fastest.

So...what ARE the markers? Descriptions? Photos? I've got two (2) 100% Het Piebald females I'd like to check out.

Thanks,
Chris
-----
0.1 Normal
0.2 Het Piebald
1.0 Reduced Pattern
0.1 Banded
0.1 Screaming Child

I'm still not happy with this picture but it kind of shows it.

The biggest one is a 25% chance het pied I produced last year from a 50% chance het pied with the marker. Unfortunately the picture shows her too far up on the body to really see the marks well. What I look for is a white belly ALL THREE belly scales across. In the last 3rd of the snake or so you also start getting black lines at the edge of the belly. Ideally the lines will be straight, thick, and black. I've seen the quality of ones that I thought had it vary somewhat so I can see the confusion with normals that have something like it.

The midsized one is an early 04 25% chance het male that Raul produced and it is the best example I've seen. He is one of my favorite snakes and eats in shed too!

The smallest one is a nicer female I produce this year from the same 50% chance het father as the 03. It's hard to see well with her being so small and her best side for the line is rolled up where you can't see it well.

The interesting thing is that her mother is a pet store girl that seems to have the mark. Unfortunately there where only two good eggs in the clutch and no pieds. Maybe she is just a look-alike "ringer belly" but I haven't given up on her possibly being a random het pied import. There should be lots and lots of imported het pieds for every imported pied.

HOLY SH!T!!!!.....This is how one determines a het????.....WOO-HOO!!.....my whole collection (minus my yellowbelly) are het pieds....even my het albino male is a het pied!!!!!

LMAO!!!!!

Not poking fun at you Randy.....Just laughing about all this belly bs........

DAMN!!!!......just got my het pied male out and he has no marker trait........I GOT SCREWED!!!!!......WHERE THE HE!! ARE THE MARKER TRAITS???????

more

Hey Chris......your het females have the traits????

I got him from Ralph Davis. Should I be worried, because almost everyone on this site recommended him and said I could trust him.
How about this spot? Would that be a marker trait?
Someone else told me that was a marker trait for piebalds too.

It's not guaranteed that there will be one. I haven't been interested in bp's very long but I have seen a clutch of 100% het pieds with NO markers.

Cheryl

Your good..........
-----
Chad Bachman

no, I have normals that have them marks.
-----
Chad Bachman

I hear ya bro!
-----
Astronomy Picture of the Day

Some guy even tried to claim 25% or more of the imports have it so I must not be doing a good job of describing it. Post some good pics of your assumed non het pied's bellies so we can see if we are talking about the same thing or not.

Everyone agrees that not all het pieds have it. The only question is if it means anything when seen in possible hets. They are really too separate issues.

I to thought I had them marks until I seen your pics, but mine are not nearly as drastic as the ones you posted, maybe only 3"-5" long at best (they are on poss het & het albinos plus a couple WC girls). Now if I could just figure out how to post a pic...LOL...I'm stupid when it comes to computers & I have no patience.
-----
Chad Bachman

First off......I exaggerated saying that my whole collection..(duh)....Second......After further examination....my two that do have these black stripes are not as extreme as the ones in your photo..my bps stripes are also in 2-3" increments..do not run the length of the body......Third.....my computer is an old POS..no scanner..won't download digital photos..won't download Kodak CDs......(hell, it barely runs AOL and solitaire)so I can not post any pics.

And finally....just curious.....how well documented is the data that these markers proved out compared to ones that did not?? and to ones without the markers?? Many, many poss hets have been proven since the Pied inception...from the big guys to the lil guys......so has EVERYONE that has proven out a poss het put together some kind of spread sheet that shows record of these markers proving to be hets??? Poss hets without these marker traits have proved out for breeders...so what's the big deal with ones that have these marker traits??? In other words......where's the justification that makes a marker "more valuable" than an unmarker??? If the data is incomplete or non-existent..then what's all the hype about???

Again....I believe it to be more bs.......as if this lil python needs anymore of it.

Possible hets with or without the marker aren't that valuable. You can get a for sure het pied male for a few hundred dollars now days. I only sell the possible het males and I sell them all for the same price regardless of having the markers or not, the same price I sell normals for. I do try to steer the markered ones toward people I think will breed them as opposed to someone who just wants a pet.

Hardly anyone that has actually bred pieds has much to say about the marker. I did see a thread on one of the sites that I probably can't link here where a Canadian breeder of pieds said something to the effect that he could pick het pieds about 80% of the time by appearance. E-mail me for the link if you want.

People seem to keep getting hung up on the fact that some het pieds don't have the mark. I don't have a good explanation for why it isn't more consistent but given what has been seen in the green and granite Burmese python mutations I believe that a sporadic het marker is possible and that it is accurate when seen. It's just too different from normal and appears to be inherited as a single gene. Not only that it looks like the pied where the white comes up from the belly and the black lines at the belly edge may correlate with the black lines in the pigmented areas on a pied.

I think the bs is the things we don't talk about, not the ones we do discuss in the forums. If there is anything at all to this marker why was it not known publicly until 2003 and why is it still discredited? Why did the kinking issue with caramels not come out until this year? Both of these morphs have been around for years. What don’t we know about now?

Here are a few of mine that show similar markings.

-----
3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Mutant Thayeri

I have .4 more 03's like them.

-----
3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Mutant Thayeri

This male is 50% het Caramel.
His brother has similar stripes,but not so pronounced.

-----
3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Mutant Thayeri

That is more of what the markers look like. Your other two pics are completely normal everyday Ball bellies (they are nice fatties though).
-----
Chad Bachman

Yes, those first two look like there is only the big scale white. That last one looks like it might be all three belly scales across like with the pied line markers. It's a little broken up but it will be interesting to see if it passes it on. Do you know if they picked it up from one of their parents? I hadn't heard of any such thing in caramels so maybe they picked it up from an interesting female bred in along the line. Who knows, maybe you got a yellow belly or a het pied or something new that accidentally got into that line of caramels.

Wouldnt that be amazing luck eh...

Now i am severely torn !
As that boy weighs in at 518 grams(mouser)
,and his brother is over 750g.
Yet i only have one girl over 1500 grams(2500 actually)for this(first)year.(She appears to be a Burgundy too).

What to do...what to do. o_O

Should i just try the smaller guy out after all?
-----
3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Mutant Thayeri

Yes, the smaller guy is large & mature enough.
-----
Chad Bachman

I will have to give him the shot at my girl then.

thank you
Charles

...forgive the crappy cam-pic

-----
3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Mutant Thayeri

.
-----
3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Mutant Thayeri

Strange. I recently purchased two (2) Het Piebald females, and neither has a white belly. In fact, their bellies are VERY HEAVILY peppered black. I mean a LOT of black! I'm pretty sure they're legit, too. I bought them from a breeder after reading some good reviews about him on "That Other Site".

They just fed, so I'll wait until tomorrow or so to check for the black side-stripes. I seem to recall them having those, though.

Chris
-----
0.1 Normal
0.2 Het Piebald
1.0 Reduced Pattern
0.1 Banded
0.1 Screaming Child

The side stripes are what people are calling markers. Who did you get them from? It wont hurt to say their name here to.
-----
Chad Bachman

If they are legit, than marks mean nothing (they may or may not have them).
-----
Chad Bachman

I bought them from Brad Armitage at Carolina Captive Bred Reptiles. And I just checked my girls. No stripes. No white bellies. (Lots of black peppering.) But regardless of marker traits, I trust Brad. I'd buy from him again...in a second.

Traitless,
Chris
-----
0.1 Normal
0.2 Het Piebald
1.0 Reduced Pattern
0.1 Banded
0.1 Screaming Child

?.....and I got het amels with no markers.....het ghosts have nothing out of the normal about them.......and het green ghosts don't either actually........

I only buy or keep 100% hets for myself......

.....yep
-----
........................................................
yep
......................................................

I've also got a 50% chance het albino that I used to think had a little bit of it.

Now that I've looked at it more in the possible het pieds I see that the albino line girl doesn't have a long or straight enough line and it's not consistently outside of a solid white 3 scale across belly.

It isn't a perfect system by any means due to:

1. Not all het pieds have it.
2. Some presumed normals seem to have something like it (although I think with closer examination we may find differences to eliminate most of the look-alikes).
3. It varies in quality in the possible het pieds that appear to be showing it (some of the poorer quality ones might just be look-alike conditions).

The only "recessive" morphs I would be looking to the belly for possible het signs on would be pattern morphs. I haven't heard of any possible belly markers for color morphs.

I know Randy, you are quite solid with your genetics...so the big question is why would a het exhibit this while a normal wouldn't? Diff genes on the same allele, so if you see one the other must be present?

I just have a hard time believing this? I think a larger sample size is needed before this can hold true. It seems like the numbers are skewed...meaning people are reporting producing pies from poss hets which exhibited the lines, while those who produced pies from poss hets without the 'markers' aren't as vocal.

Randy, have you produced any pieds yet from your poss hets? This isn't an antagonistic comment, I am just curious...i honestly hope you do.

Matt

"the big question is why would a het exhibit this while a normal wouldn't?"

If the single piebald gene in a het is causing this marker then that would be an explanation.

"Diff genes on the same allele, so if you see one the other must be present?"

Are you suggesting that maybe the marker is a different gene linked to the piebald gene by being close to it on the same chromosome? I guess that could explain why some hets have the marker and some don't. In some lines a crossover has broken the link and in others they still go together. It's just that the marker looks so much like the start of pied that I think it actually is the pied gene and not a separate gene.

"I just have a hard time believing this? I think a larger sample size is needed before this can hold true. It seems like the numbers are skewed...meaning people are reporting producing pies from poss hets which exhibited the lines, while those who produced pies from poss hets without the 'markers' aren't as vocal."

There are certainly people out there with enough experience to settle the question of if there is anything to this particular marker or any other. While we’re waiting for them to chime in we just have to speculate.

"Randy, have you produced any pieds yet from your poss hets? This isn't an antagonistic comment, I am just curious...i honestly hope you do."

Not yet. I can't seem to do a good enough job of feeding to get things to breed as quick as I would like. I have four 25% chance girls that should go this year but none have the marker (actually one might have a little depending on how loosely you define it). Three of them are out of my oldest 50% chance het and he doesn't have the marker. I got a single baby from him and his biggest daughter this year (bad eggs) but she wasn't pied, only a little classic jungle like (due to the stress of the bad clutch I think). All my good marker females are 03's and pretty iffy for breeding this year.

I did breed a 50% chance het male with the marker to a pet store girl that sure seems to have the marker (the marks curve in a little at the start so maybe just some sort of belly ringer thing). It was another dismal clutch (3 slugs, 2 infertile) and neither hatchling was pied but both where markers. I'm going to send her to breed to a markered 100% het pied this year to hopefully get an answer one way or the other on her being a marker identified random het. I think that statistically there should be lots of hets of various types of morphs in the general population; it's just that it is unlikely you will pair two of them up. If there are markers you can increase those odds.

I wasnt correcting you man lol

Raul