Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm in the process of reviewing requirements for a potential move to Florida. I have spoken with Fish and Wildlife in Florida and I am familiar with permit requirements and regulations. My question is concerning federal permits. I have some species that I am not sure on as I have a unique situation. I have two spectacled caiman (this is a grey area I think), a Siamese and a morlet's crocodile. The crocs I purchased in state so I was exempt from any federal requirements and I have a receipt to prove this. While I know this is legal in my current state, I am not clear on moving them to another state. They were purchased 2 years ago with the intention of keeping them within PA. I know you can not purchase endangered species out of state and ship them or carry them into another state legally without a permit, but this isn't exactly my case either.

I have not fond much information on the federal permits. I believe this are though the EPA?. Anyone have any info on this? What is involved with obtaining these permits and what time frame can I expect to receive them in?

Thanks
John

Hi John,

You will probably want to cross every T and dot every I on this one to avoid potential problems. Having said that based on my understanding, and perhaps Bill can expound further, to cross state lines you will need USDI permits for transport.

I know the dilemma you face because you could legally donate the animal sans permit across the lines, just not sale or trade it. But in your case minus any sell or trade why should the permit be necessary?

I think the general thought is that anyone could purchase an animal in state and then move said animal wherever without permits.

So in this case I'm thinking you will need a permit for the transport to be legal. After my years of dealing with crocs and their transport I have found it better to be extra cautious in regards to permits.

When talking to USDI make them be very specific so you don't get caught in their errors.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

This site says that I wouldn't need a permit.

http://www.monkeymaddness.com/articles/endangeredspecies.html

I will still check.

John

John,
I think that page summed it up pretty well.

It basically found the words to back up what we thought.

I, and I'm sure you, get a different story whenever you talk to the USDI. Having the words makes it so much easier.

Best wishes on your move.

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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Hi John,

I am one of three people in the country which has the USDI Federal Permit, you can email me at Cubancroc@cox.net and I can give you the details on what you can/cannot do along with how to obtain this permit (which can be very challenging).

Truly,
Paul Bodnar

Paul,

So then does he need the permit in his scenario or is the website link correct as written and no permit is needed?

Thanks.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Chris,

This would be easier to explain to you with a phone call instead of a post here on the forum.

Basically, here is John's situation.

The animals would be legal if the following situation had taken place. Both the buyer and seller had a USDI permit when the crocodiles crossed state lines.

I know that currently, nobody in his state has a USDI permit for crocodilians due to a list US Fish and Wildlife sends to me every year. This list is sent to all permit holders in the country and shows the endangered species private individuals/ institutions are authorized to keep (example, Disney has theirs to include Cheetahs).

So even if John bought the crocs within state borders because they originally did not enter the state legally they could be confiscated under Fish and Wildlife law even if the person which now possess the crocodiles did not buy them out of state. Once the appendix 1 crocodilians have crossed State lines illegally there is no law which can "restore" the legal state of the animals to Fish and Wildlife. The crocs can, at any time, be confiscated without regards to how many times they have been bought or sold.

If he applies for a USDI permit he now has the option to buy animals from a legal source.

If you have any questions you can email me at Cubancroc@cox.net

Truly,
Paul Bodnar

Paul,

Thanks for the information. This clarifies what I have always thought in regards to this type of transaction. BUT after reading the link John provided above I wasn't so sure anymore.

So in Johns situation and for anyone else reading the thread what options are open to someone in that scenario?
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Hi Chris,

According to US Fish and Wildlife law there is not a way to close the legal loop or in anyway "cleanse" the animals. Fortunately, Fish and Wildlife agents have so much already going on that one or a few illegal crocodiles are not much of a concern for them.

Truly,
Paul Bodnar

I believe Paul is looking at this in the safest possible way, get a permit and thus no need to worry about breaking any regulations ... and I would agree, if you can get a permit then get one it can only help in the long run, but however the USDI permit thats being discussed here is a permit that is no longer available as far as I know.

Sure the USFWS is a part of the USDI, but back many years ago the USDI it self was the direct permit issuer, they allowed permits that allowed a much wider span of activities, in some cases allowing any and all species of crocodilian to be shipped in interstate commerce as long as the permit is valid.

Paul has his permit in I believe Ohio, John (snake farm) has his in Texas and i forget who else has them.

The USFWS publishes a register of all permit holders yearly and this register is sent to all permit holders

Ok, anyway back on to the original subject.

If you own ESA animals and you are moving from one state to another, thus crossing state lines, you are allowed to take your ESA animals with you across state lines with no permit needed.

Now if you move from one state 2 another and bring your ESA animals with the purpose in mind to sell them, well that would be a fine line their and I think the USFWS could then step in, also going back to the safety of a permit which Paul spoke of ... if you move to another state bringing your ESA animals its ok, but if at some point you decide to sell these animals, I feel this would be ok and legal, but the USFWS may not feel the same, they could say regardless that the animals crosed state lines and you could have a problem there.

I personly if in this situation of moving across state lines would not be worried about it.

Thats my 2 or 3 cents.
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Best regards,
Donny