Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys, as someone in the lumber/sheet goods industry i just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions and mis-information flying around regarding these products.

First off they both weigh about the same.The weight difference is so minimal you really aren't going to notice it as any kind of factor.For the record though for the nitpickers, yes melamines should weight a couple pounds less on a 3/4 sheet, but it depends on the product and manufacturer.Normally we're dealing with particle board core in the melamines.
When i'm shipping this stuff out, the trucking companies treat it as the same weight as an example.

Melamines won't have a stronger screw-pull out strength, MDF is actually rated just a bit higher.It's not very noticeable for our use as herpers though so again it really isn't going to be a factor for our use.Something to keep in mind is that most melamines have a particleboard core (there are different grades and qualities as well but i digress) so the core tends to flake easier and be "looser" or not as dense as an MDF.

There are different methods of making melamine, the best for our use is to get Thermal-fused melamine.The coating is applied with heat and pressure making for a much stronger and heavier-duty finish.

Now regarding formaldehyde emissions...
There is formaldehyde everywhere in nature to some degree.With these products as a standard grade, the MDF will rate higher for formaldehyde emissions.If this is an issue for anyone there are many products available in both MDF and as a core substrate for Melamine panels that are formaldehyde-free.They will cost more but it's up to the individual if it's worth it or not.

Thermally fused melamines will also rate higher for heat resistance and as an example the "Melpar" stock that we stock (and i used for my cages) is rated up to 275°F.I have never had a problem just attaching heat-tape to the underside (with a dimmer, and air flow available always) to heat my cages .

In a nutshell, they can be similar products but it really depends on the specific application, and what particular product you use.
I find melamine to be more useful for cage building simply because it will be more moisture resistant naturally, won't require additional finishing, and will resist heat better.Strength and weight wise they are similar enough that we won't notice a difference.You can also get MDF-core melamines if you so choose.You can also buy both products in "moisture resistant" grades if you choose.

The only downfalls that i see in melamines are: the lack of variety in original colour choice, the fact that you will need a decent saw with a melamine blade to avoid chipping of the edges on any cuts you make.Both products you should pre-drill any screw holes as well.

Also keep in mind the grade of materials.Some places might be considerably cheaper than others, but will have a commercial or "shop" grade material vs the better industrial grades.This alone can account for a lot of difference between products.

Sorry about the long post but when i stop by here now and again through the years i see people asking a lot of questions on these products.

Spanky

Haha yes there's more...

I just wanted to mention that i LOVE Chris Harper's idea of covering the cage floor with expanded pvc while having parts of the wood cut-out to attach the heat-tape to the exposed underside.Just saying that it's not completely necessary.I do plan on using that method on my next cages though.

But it does provide greater peace of mind for those that worry about such things.

Personally, I think it's easier to just skip the floor in the first place and just staple the PVC right to the edge of the cage. But many new builders are not comfortable with that idea.
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Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

I also think it's a great idea.Myself i'll probably incorporate it into my next design for sure.Since i use a fair amount of substrate and usually fairly heavy items within, for me it would work best to just do the panels instead of the whole bottom.

When using an entire plastic floor it's best to have the cage resting on the solid top of another cage below, in other words, a stacking design.

For the bottom-most cage you can either build it with a solid floor or build a platform with casters for it to rest on.

I had a stack of three cages where the bottom one rested on a rolling platform. The upper-most cage had over 50 lbs. of playsand and the bottom held up great.

But it's always best to go with what you're comfortable with.
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Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

Yeah it's very similar to what i had built as well, as far as stacking goes.I'll post some pics of my setup on a new thread in the next few days.

Thanks for the tips though, any and all info is always cool.

Hey, thanks for taking the time to post and share this information. Let me ask some questions and at the same time shed some light on where these misconceptions have come from.

>>First off they both weigh about the same.The weight difference is so minimal you really aren't going to notice it

What are the actual listed weights of melamine-coated particle board and MDF then? Both 3/4" ?

A Menards Home Improvement Center in Lincoln Nebraska used to have all the weights of it's products listed on an order sheet. I believe they were 12 lbs. different. Maybe 96 and 84?

I don't remember. I do know I weighed identically sized pieces of both products on an expensive scale and the MDF was heavier. Noticably heavier.

You already mentioned that different melamines are manufactured differently. Since particle boards come in different densities I'm sure melamine products will have different weights.

I have another possible idea though. As I'm sure you're aware of sheet products are often listed by their shipping weights, not their actual weights. I guess some manufacturers simply want to round up their weights to be conservative for haulers? I don't know

>>Melamines won't have a stronger screw-pull out strength, MDF is actually rated just a bit higher.

Until last year I had a Stanley Home Improvement book. Unfortunately that books was lost in a flood. It said particle board was better than MDF. This was in reference to screws and nails going into the length of the board, not through the thickness as in a subfloor.

Since edge-joints are so common in cage building I think this is an important designation.

Another possibility:

Just recently I heard or read that MDF has improved in the past several years so screw holding strength may be better. I don't use it much but did help a friend join some panels. It did seem to hold screws much better than I remember.

And that applies to all of my comments. I'm not a huge fan of MDF and have not specifically sought it out for my own projects in many years. That may explain all the confusion if it has changed.

>>I find melamine to be more useful for cage building simply because it will be more moisture resistant naturally, won't require additional finishing, and will resist heat better.

I also prefer melamine for these reasons. I still like to coat melamine on the interior, but it is nice to have an exterior basically already done. And contact paper sticks to melamine better than MDF, making it a wise choice in my opinion.
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Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

I have to chime in here on this . While im not tooting my horn I did own my own cabinet Buis for 10 yrs .During this time I built more cabinets then I would like to remember in Melamine and also some project in MDF.

As for the off gassing you were correct spanky pretty much everything in a home offgasses formaldyhide as it is commonly used in products from some stains to almost 80% of glues and likeness products .The difference is that in a larger enviroment ( like the house ) the buildup or level of it is miniscule compared to the heated conditions of reptile cages and more constricted air flow in them .

I know that with the two products myself personally would use a 4/5 ply plywood of good grade to build a cage over the two.Weight is the biggest factor and then the appearnce IMO cant be beat of a good wood stained and how it looks in 5-10 years down the road .If im going to move something heavy as 3/4 materials its going to be a wood over a composite materials such as MDF or melamine.

Ill have to try and find the info i got from a maker of my products i used in cabinetry the cancers caused in Lab animals from the products in them was enough reason to be skepical of it to me for use on any animals i own.And i had offered it severa lyrs ago UNTIL i got this info for racks ( not cages while i offered them i would always upsale the wood cause of the finished look of woods .I went out and bought over $400 in respirators once i got this info to filter out just the bad stuff in the air from cutting the stuff. Now to me after the info i got on it its like this .....

Smoking causes cancer knowing this would you smoke ?
well i do ( lol bad analogy)
But knowing the potential riskc i could be subjecting a much more sensitive respitory system to in a reptile is something i wont chance doing using the two products not to mention i have lifted over 10k lbs or so of that stuff by hand in the shop

Also regardles what the specs say on surface/edge strengths of screws/ nails etc MDF SUCKS it splits ,swells even when predrilled the best option to make connections is biscuit joints or dowels in the products then clamp n glue it "gorilla glue" works great on it and also seals the edges water proof aswell. but if anyone uses it read the directions a thimble full would glue ur house together lol it expands as it dries and can be a b___ch to sand off esp on MDF or Melamine.

well if i can find all that info i will post it if not il ltry to get some tech data off the web on them .
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Visit the new website while the Jungle gets made over.

I also hate the stuff, all of it.MDF and melamines, especially MDF as far as any cabinet making goes.
I prefer plywoods anytime, they're lighter and much stronger.The only downfall with them is the tendency to warp and twist.I'll still take that over swelling/volcanoing/chipping/offgassing anyday though.My next cages will most likely be out of some Baltic Birch (the 13 layer stuff).
It's cool to see some pro cabinet makers posting.I also did it for a couple years, but obviously wasn't on the same level as the journeymen and professionals out there.

***Hey, thanks for taking the time to post and share this information. Let me ask some questions and at the same time shed some light on where these misconceptions have come from.***

Not a problem.Honestly it wasn't specifically directed towards yourself, you have a great wealth of knowledge that you readily share with the forum, and from what i can tell it's pretty much all spot on.There are others who might have been confused or misled on some of the different products, or where they are at now as far as advances in the industry.

As far as the product weights go....We've had reps from several of the different manufacturers of these products in for demo's/seminars and in industrial grades they should be very close in weight.They all say the same stuff, and that for practical purposes they are to be treated as the weighing the same.Commercial and other lesser grades will make a difference, as you said there will be different densities.So it's very possible a retailer will have sheets of those that weigh differently.

As far as screw/nail pull out strength again they're close but the industrial grade mdf's should rate higher.I believe this is due to their greater density and "hardness".It's not a big difference these days though, and again different grades and different particle cores in the melamines will also affect it.

Really it comes down to all things being equal the products are now quite similar in many areas, EXCEPT things like moisture and heat resistance.I think that these affect us more in our applications.

All this said if i have my choice, i'm going with a plywood lol.It's lighter and stronger.Yeah it'll cost more and will involve some "finishing" but that's all part of the fun

I think it is phenomenal that we have all of this knowledge floating around the forum, and people willing to share it, and discuss the pros and cons of things in intelligent ways.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge guys. I know I appreciate it, and I am sure everyone else does to!

Elizabeth

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1.0 Uro Archimedes
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
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Indiana & Wisconsin