Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I'd appreciate any feedback on the following:

1) what are the current theories explaining "stargazing"?
2) what sort of "waiting period" adequately exposes most medical problems in bought snakes? Is a 30-day guarantee period enough? Is it too much, given that some problems can be acquired in the new owner's possession? Is it reasonable to be asked to replace a snake that was reported as "thriving" for the first four or five months, in one case, or even longer, in another case? (same buyer, two entirely diff problems--one the stargazing, the other a nonspecific infection that's apparently impairing feeding response).
3) does anyone know of a collection of half a thousand snakes, that has had only two medical problems in two years, and both of those were eggbinding? (that's what's reported by the person asking me for a refund for these snake--one was the "only" problem in that big collection except for the two eggbound females a year ago--I was told the others i'd sent were all continuing to thrive, and then suddenly there's a stargazer, too, and the argument presented is that both shortcomings are my fault.

As a buyer, i've always felt it's impossible to purchase an animal knowing it will live long term or reproduce successfully. When i buy, I seek just to see that new arrivals thrive through an incubation period, and figure after that a problem that occurred initiated here, not at the seller's. (I will stand behind an animal a vet says had a congenital defect, as once happened with an enlarged heart, even long after that 30 day guarantee period is over).

I'd love to hear what others guarantee, what others think is fair (to buyer AND seller), and how others handle situations like these. I want to do the right thing and am always willing to reevaluate my practices.

peace
terry

>>Hi, I'd appreciate any feedback on the following:
>>
>>1) what are the current theories explaining "stargazing"?
>>2) what sort of "waiting period" adequately exposes most medical problems in bought snakes? Is a 30-day guarantee period enough? Is it too much, given that some problems can be acquired in the new owner's possession? Is it reasonable to be asked to replace a snake that was reported as "thriving" for the first four or five months, in one case, or even longer, in another case? (same buyer, two entirely diff problems--one the stargazing, the other a nonspecific infection that's apparently impairing feeding response).
>>3) does anyone know of a collection of half a thousand snakes, that has had only two medical problems in two years, and both of those were eggbinding? (that's what's reported by the person asking me for a refund for these snake--one was the "only" problem in that big collection except for the two eggbound females a year ago--I was told the others i'd sent were all continuing to thrive, and then suddenly there's a stargazer, too, and the argument presented is that both shortcomings are my fault.
>>
>>As a buyer, i've always felt it's impossible to purchase an animal knowing it will live long term or reproduce successfully. When i buy, I seek just to see that new arrivals thrive through an incubation period, and figure after that a problem that occurred initiated here, not at the seller's. (I will stand behind an animal a vet says had a congenital defect, as once happened with an enlarged heart, even long after that 30 day guarantee period is over).
>>
>>I'd love to hear what others guarantee, what others think is fair (to buyer AND seller), and how others handle situations like these. I want to do the right thing and am always willing to reevaluate my practices.
>>
>>peace
>>terry

Hi Terry,

I guarantee my animals for 30 days. The stipulation is that the problem must be diagnosed by a veterinarian as a pre-existing problem with 30 days of delivery.

You have no control over what the new owner is going to expose that animal to.

I think that this customer's demands are completely out of line and unreasonable.

As to the questions:

1. Stargazing is a symptom. It can be caused by a whole bunch of different things, from IBD to Herpes infections to Ophidian Paramixovirus to chemical exposure to head or spinal trauma. Basically anything that can cause a neurological problem can cause stargazing.

2. If a snake was thriving to the first 4 or 5 months, the suddenly develops problems, the I think a veterinarian would need to assess whether it is a pre-existing condition. If it is a boid, there is a possibility of IBD, but you would be definitely seeing it in your animals if it came from you that way. This guy is asking you to make something right that you probably didn't make wrong in the first place. I would probably have to stand my ground on this one and demand some sort of evidence that it was my fault. I know you don't want to sell a bad animal to anyone any more than I do, but you can't guarantee an animal for life.

3. Even with the best of husbandry, any collection of 500 animals is going to have problems. If this guy says he's only had 2 eggbound females out of 500 snakes in the last 2 years, I would have trouble believing anything he told me. I don't think you can have 500 of anything for 2 years without some medical problems.

When you are buying living things, there is a certain amount of assumed risk. A reputable breeder (such as yourself) will do what he can to make sure that the animals he sells are in good health WHEN THEY ARE DELIVERED. Beyond that, you have no control. The buyer has to also assume some of the risk. If it can be shown to be a congenital defect or a pre-existing disease that was present when the animal was delivered, I would feel obligated to make it right. If the animal simply got sick 5 months after delivery, I would feel no responsibility whatsoever. You certainly can't be expected to just take his word for it after all this time.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

If a snake was thriving to the first 4 or 5 months, then suddenly develops problems, I think a veterinarian would need to assess whether it is a pre-existing condition....

When he first asked me about the snake that had stopped feeding, I urged him to take it to a vet or send in a fecal, as I would counsel anyone, whether they'd bought snakes from me or not.

He says the vet diagnosed an infection for the loss of appetite, and blamed it on "inbreeding". When the stargazer was reported to me, my customer said, "inbreeding again".

It seems like there are two issues, and i'd appreciate your feedback: 1) Could a vet diagnose an infection as being caused by inbreeding? 2) Could the snakes in question be considered inbred?

I look forward to others' more informed answers on the first question. On the second, it's hard for me to imagine that these snakes are inbred:

The one with the infection is a hypo/albino, a baby only two gens removed from an outcross of huge proportions: the Love hypo line tracing back to a wild-caught animal X the Porras albino line that first appeared in Europe in the late 80s and didn't get to the US until 1995, so for more than a decade these two groups were wholly separated, sort of examples of "island biodiversity," it seems to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, my customer seems to be a nice guy despite our hassles, and he's given me the name of the vet, whom i'm emailing to see if/how he diagnosed "inbreeding" as the cause of the problems with the snake he saw. If the problem was preexisting of course I'd stand behind the animals.

Am I just uninformed in thinking there's no way a lack of feeding response or an infection could be attributed to inbreeding?

peace
terry

>>If a snake was thriving to the first 4 or 5 months, then suddenly develops problems, I think a veterinarian would need to assess whether it is a pre-existing condition....
>>
>>When he first asked me about the snake that had stopped feeding, I urged him to take it to a vet or send in a fecal, as I would counsel anyone, whether they'd bought snakes from me or not.
>>
>>He says the vet diagnosed an infection for the loss of appetite, and blamed it on "inbreeding". When the stargazer was reported to me, my customer said, "inbreeding again".
>>
>> It seems like there are two issues, and i'd appreciate your feedback: 1) Could a vet diagnose an infection as being caused by inbreeding? 2) Could the snakes in question be considered inbred?
>>
>>I look forward to others' more informed answers on the first question. On the second, it's hard for me to imagine that these snakes are inbred:
>>
>> The one with the infection is a hypo/albino, a baby only two gens removed from an outcross of huge proportions: the Love hypo line tracing back to a wild-caught animal X the Porras albino line that first appeared in Europe in the late 80s and didn't get to the US until 1995, so for more than a decade these two groups were wholly separated, sort of examples of "island biodiversity," it seems to me. Maybe I'm wrong.
>>
>>Anyway, my customer seems to be a nice guy despite our hassles, and he's given me the name of the vet, whom i'm emailing to see if/how he diagnosed "inbreeding" as the cause of the problems with the snake he saw. If the problem was preexisting of course I'd stand behind the animals.
>>
>>Am I just uninformed in thinking there's no way a lack of feeding response or an infection could be attributed to inbreeding?
>>
>>peace
>>terry

Hi Terry,

First off, if the problem were due to inbreeding, that would indicate a genetic disorder. This would almost certainly be present from birth. I don't, for the life of me, understand how a veterinarian can attribute an infection to inbreeding. An infection is caused by a bacterial, viral, parasitic or fungal invasion. Simple as that. I also have never heard of "stargazing" suddenly appearing months after birth due to some deficiency caused by inbreeding. None of this makes any sense to me at all. I think I would want to speak personally to the veterinarian that make the diagnoses. If he can diagnose it, he can explain it to you in terms that make sense to you.

It sounds to me like both of these problems occurred after delivery.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>>>. I think I would want to speak personally to the veterinarian that make the diagnoses.

the customer was nice enough to put me in touch with the vet and I emailed the vet asking about the diagnosis.

He responded that he treated the snake "for a bacterial enteritis. It did have an elevated white cell count with toxic changes in the azurophiles(a white blood cell). I 'suggested' that color mutants/morpha may have a decreased resistance, but he's putting words in my mouth if he told you I said the mutation/morph color was the reason the snake was ill, especially 6 months post purchase."

I haven't used names here so i feel free to share this info since it all relates to the general questions of medicine and seller and buyer responsibility & etc. that this forum explores.

terry

.

That's really sort of what I figured.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson