Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Austin show is abusive to animals while giving out bad information. In an upcoming show he claims 50% of Crotalus adamanteus bites are fatal. This not based on fact but fear.
Killer pythons and killer rattlesnakes doesn't give an image that leads to conservation.
Write AP at www.animalplanet.com and let them know how you feel about this show.(good or bad) TV shows will not get better without feedback to the network.
Shows like Austins just play on the general publics fear and don't educate.

Jim Harrison

Well...I agree that his show is not the best, nor the most informative. In fact I think he's as much of a clown as Steve Irwin.

However, he's really not that far off as far as fatality rates for Crotalus adamanteus. The human mortality rate in serious envenomations is about 40-45%.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Actually those status are for untreated bites. With antiserum in the USA only about 3% die. Its all about getting medical care in time. With all the hot keepers in Florida how many were bitten by a Crotalus and died in the last 10 years and how many did not die? He is saying that 50% die if bitten. That is to make the snake look like a coldblooded killer .

Jim Harrison

Well, 50% is a little high even for untreated bites. What I'm saying is that since he doesn't qualify his stats by specifying treated or untreated, what he's saying isn't that far off the mark. It is a lie by omission, but he can still justify saying it. It's all for drama, and that's what gets ratings.

I do agree the he needs to be taken off the air, but not only for saying that. He needs to be taken off the air simply because he's a clown...everything I've seen him do is wrong one way or the other. I don't think it's going to happen though...people watch the show. That in itself will keep it going.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

We cant help but watch. I watched animal planets "big squeeze" and anaconda vs. jaguar on discovery. These were terrible shows and anti snake propaganda. I watch national geographics "natures nightmares: snake bite" as well. As long as there is good footage of snakes I cant help myself and I put myself through the agony of listening to half truths and incorrect facts. Too many people do this so these shows will remain. I have to give a high five to steve irwin though because he has never knocked the herp keepers and he attracts a lot of attention and is education and positive. lets face it, the general public falls asleep to PBS programs that tell it how it is. Austin Stevens has some nice footage..thats it. If we could just get the scary titles and phrases like "man eating python" out of it we might have some good shows. I also noticed he mentioned in that first episode that there are documented cases of retics eating people...I want to see those. I have heard somewhat credible sources say sebae has killed people but thats it.

I hear ya. I'm guilty of watching just to see the snakes, too.

Sometimes you get a bonus, like when Austin Stevens got tagged that time....now THAT was comedy.

I have no doubt that all of the giant snakes, Anacondas, Retics, Indian Pythons, Burmese, African Rocks have probably killed people and even eaten small children in the remote villages from time to time. They are dangerous critters and I think they are the most underestimated animals that people keep in private collections. I'm actually much more apprehensive and nervous working with a very large constrictor than I am working with venomous snakes.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yep....I said it before, and I'll say it again. Large constrictors are the most dangerous snakes to work with, cuz if they grab you, and nobody else is around, there is little you can do. If you get tagged by a hot snake alone, at least you can get to a phone and/or hospital (usually).

Nobody agreed with me the last time I said this, can't figure out why???
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Chad Bachman

>>Yep....I said it before, and I'll say it again. Large constrictors are the most dangerous snakes to work with, cuz if they grab you, and nobody else is around, there is little you can do. If you get tagged by a hot snake alone, at least you can get to a phone and/or hospital (usually).
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>>Nobody agreed with me the last time I said this, can't figure out why???
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>>Chad Bachman

I dunno...I can tell you this, though. If an 18 or 20 foot python gets a good hold on you and gets a loop or two dropped (and it happens with amazing speed), you ain't going anywhere without help. They are fully capable of killing you, and that would be a decidedly unpleasant way to go.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I attribute the large constrictor deaths and hospitalizations in full due to the vast amount of bivitattus out there (everyone wants an albino python and they are cheap). They are seen as a pet store animal and it just isnt the case. I heard of one death by sebae and a few retics happenings and no deaths related to the biggest one of all, the E. murinus. This is likely because most people that keep them know what they are getting into and there are much much less in collections. Now with dumb movies out there I bet there are a few that have them just to be cool and have an anaconda but they have done well so far and not messed up. With venomous I think the same thing as E. murinus. Most people that have them have the sense to know what they have (of course with the few exceptions) and there are way less in collections. I personally would keep someone with me when working with any large constrictor and with venomous it only takes a little bite and in midwest northern states you cnat count on good medical care if bitten by an exotic. But i hear of more professionals dyeing from the venomous than from large boids...less room for error. All need to be respected as much as your life though...I agree. And I do not agree that these are known man hunters in the wild though. I have looked for documented true cases of someone being eaten and the stats just arent out there. Yes I believe it may have happened somewhere in remote areas with children..I would be dumb to rule out that possibility. Sorry for the long post.

No, I don't think they are "manhunters". They are opportunistic feeders. If they see an animal that they can capture, constrict and eat, they are going to do so. It doesn't matter if that animal is a dog, sheep, deer, rabbit, pig, or human. To them it's just a prey item. You probably aren't going to find a lot of documentation or records of cases. Where it's likely to happen, such things just aren't a priority...you don't find a lot of detailed record keeping in your average village in South America or Africa or Southeast Asia. You will hear a lot of anecdotal stories of these things happening if you talk to the villagers though. I would guess that a whole lot more of them are taken by crocs than what is reported, too.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I know what you are saying and completely agree. It is just the terms the media uses that really make things look bad in the name of conservation and preservation. I am sure a bite from a puff adder would (bitis not heterodon) be a nighmare but it really puts a dark side on snakes to name the program "natures nightmares" and have it be a show on snakes. My sugar gliders are some of the best hunters around and nobody is putting the dark side on them ... maybe because they cant kill humans but eventigers are never looked at as a nightmare and they are always seen as beautifl animals. There are a lot of animals that can and do cause harm to humans but our educational programming likes to make a dollar off the already set fear of the public they should be trying to cure. And i will end by saying Austin Stevens has a show because of some nice photos and good footage with an entertaining voice...simple as that.

Yeah, the very thing that grabs viewers is the thing that ruins these shows...sensationalism. As someone pointed out earlier, if it were truly an educational program and they stuck strictly to reciting the facts, we would be the only people watching. Nobody but herpers really gives hoot about the life history of a snake, they just want to see what will happen if it bites you. People tend to watch these shows for the same reason they watch auto racing...for the wrecks.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

"And i will end by saying Austin Stevens has a show because of some nice photos and good footage with an entertaining voice...simple as that."

It also doesnt hurt that they show him swinging on vines like some kind of lame Tarzan after a huge Gaboon.All these set up hyped up shots really take away from the educating that should be going on.I also think he is a over dramatic moron! like Irwin.

Off subject, but are you sure E. murinus is larger than P. riticulatus? I believe the retic still has the record, right?

Nothing to do with the post, just curious.
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Chad Bachman

Depends if you are talking larger or longer. The Anaconda is the largest snake in the world for total bulk. The Reticulated Python is the longest snake in the world, but not as heavy.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yeah, I wasn't sure what he meant by "largest".
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Chad Bachman

P. reticulatus, P.m.m P.m.b P.m.p, P. sebae, and E. murinus all grow over 20 ft. All of them also have records over 25 ft. and nothing is really crushing that 30 ft mark with maybe 1-2 ft exceptions. So they are all within 5 ft or each other on average so I consider them all long snakes and yes P. reticulatus does regularly grow a few ft. more but i wouldnt consider that as significant as the hundred lbs E. murinus can tower over the python species (yes there are exceptions like "Baby" but I would also be likely to consider molurus as bigger than reticulatus as well). This is why I would consider murinus to be the largest snake in the world. My friend is 6'6" and roughly 215 lbs. But I would not consider him as big as the 6'3" fat pizza owner next door to me. This was also brought up in another forum and the someone said they thought larger means longer and a response was "you would consider a 32 ft rope to be bigger than a 30 ft telephone pole?" I have to agree with that. My common sense when I was 10 years old told me E. murinus was the largest snake in the world and that is the fascination that stuck...leading me being obsessed with the 4 Eunectes species. Just my opinion.

Alot of people use the word "largest" for "longest", I don't, just wansn't sure if that is what you meant.
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Chad Bachman

I agree with you 100%. If a large python grabs you and you are alone, you are up [bleep] creek!!!! Sean

The don't make antivenin for large constrictor mis-haps..or for alligator bite, either. Working with either, you had best be on your "A" game all the way through the contact.

~~Greg~~

I can easily help watching these things...Im tired of seeing people pinning, tailing and otherwise harassing snakes for no good reason. Ive caught hundreds of venomous snakes out of the wild from Lanceheads to Pigmy Rattlers and havn't felt the need to pin one yet. People who dont know any better watching trash like this is why (or at least part of why) we are seeing so many bites lately.

The number one rule for safely working with/around venomous snakes...HANDS OFF!...
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Peter and Sara
Beouf River Reptiles

your brother say, on a National Geographic show, that...."keeping a venomous snake in your home is more dangerous than keeping a loaded gun in your home"? How is that good for the way people look at these animals, and for conservation of an animal so dangerous? It's BS, guns in homes kill far more people than venomous snakes, by far.

I'm sure it would break your heart if/when it's illegal for all us "pee-brains" to own hots... Wouldn't it?

No, I don't like Steve Austin/Austins, whatever his name is.
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Chad Bachman

Chad:

Jim brother is right, think about it. My shotgun can't escape the closet by itself and shoot whomever is in the room or house. However, a venomous snake can escape its "closet" and injure or kill anyone in the house. Those are simply the facts, no arguments required. This is why I don't keep my collection in the house with everyone else. Mine is in a specially built room, in my barn, to keep everyone as safe as possible. Not everyone can do this, so the next best acceptable option is keeping them in their own room made as escape proof as possible and professional caging.

Jims brother statement to NGS does not badly reflect on venomous snakes, just irresponsiable people that don't keep them safely. The snakes are just reacting they way that they were designed to react.

Yes, you are right about guns in homes killing more than venomous snakes do. This is another group of irresponsable people not keeping them in a locked cabinet and away from everyone else. Or it's an emotionally unstable person who should have never had one in the first place.

It's just about being responsable, clear & simple.
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Al

You can take the animal out of the jungle but you can never take the jungle out of the animal.

It's the fact that the general public is not going to break his statments down, and look at the "only if's".

If you feel these types of people are going to help us when times get rough, than you are surely wrong. They want to see our rights taken from us, as much as the general public does. They try to make themselves sound good around private keepers, but I have a good idea on their overall feeling about the private sector keeping hots. I can't name names, or give quotes from certain people, so I will just let it go.

Don't trust anybody!!!
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Chad Bachman

Chad,

You are both correct.

A gun cannot get out on it's own, walk next door and shoot your neighbor. An unstable person could take the gun and shoot his neighbor with it, though. In that case, the gun did not kill the person, it was simply the tool used by an unstable person to kill his neighbor. It could just as easily been a knife, a hammer, an axe, a chainsaw or even a 2x4. A Mamba certainly could escape it's cage, get out of the house and bite and kill your neighbor.

A responsible keeper of either can prevent those tragedies from happening. There is absolutely no reason for a responsible law abiding citizen to be prevented from having a gun. Likewise there is no reason for a responsible law abiding and QUALIFIED person to be prohibited from keeping venomous snakes. The difference is that the gun is an inanimate object that simply is incapable of any action of it's own accord. The venomous snake is a motile, living thing that can, in fact, do things on it's own.

I've seen people living in mobile homes keeping cobras in 15 gallon aquariums in their living room. Many times these people had small children living in the home with them. To me, that's irresponsible. Fortunately, those people are the minority of hot keepers. Unfortunately, they are the ones that usually make the headlines.

Gun owners have the NRA working for them (us) tho protect the right for everyone to own a gun as long as you follow the law. Herpers don't have anything like the NRA. That's going to be the downfall of the hobby/profession. We don't stick together.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I agree with you 100%. I just don't see many authority figures (thats who I meant "don't trust" helping us out when the time comes, and it will.
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Chad Bachman

>>I agree with you 100%. I just don't see many authority figures (thats who I meant "don't trust" helping us out when the time comes, and it will.
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>>Chad Bachman

You are entirely correct. And, unless we get a "voice" none ever will. The old saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" is the absolute truth. The "dark side" realizes that. That's why there are organizations such as HSUS and PETA lobbying against us. They have a pretty easy job, too..because we aren't lobbying back.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Besides the fact Austin Stevens is a "showman" defined: a**h***!
He doesn't represent responsible handling skills for the average veiwer. Watching him getting taged twice in his first tv show was enough for me. I can't believe they gave him a series ! If you compare guns and hot's. I've had both around me for over 20 years .Guess what? If you handle a firearm resposibly and respect it for what it is ,and what it can do , you don't have an accident. Golly! If you respect a hot alway's and don't let your guard down , ever! I've seem to manage not to get in the newpaper.That's knowing my limits on my skills . Just my .02

It's all common sense, isn't it?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I guess your getting at me being in the newspaper? They never had my permission to do so.
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Chad Bachman

I didn't know you were in the paper, Chad. What was that all about?

That's one of the problems with the news media...they don't generally need or ask for permission. They run whatever they think will help sell newspapers or gain viewers. They don't even really much care if it's the truth or not. As a matter of fact, sometimes the plain truth is just too boring...so they embellish a bit (or a lot). If threatened with a suit, they just print a retraction or correction in the smallest print they have available and bury it amongst the obituaries...and, viola'! They are covered.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

They printed an article on me after I was bitten by a Jameson's mamba. I guess they needed me there to tell them I would sue if they did release the info, but I was in the hospital, and never knew about it until it was already published.
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Chad Bachman

Holy crap, Batman! That had to be scary. I've had some fairly close calls in my time, but never been tagged by a Mamba. I've been stuck but not terribly seriously and not by a fast elapid. The close calls with them were enough to get my attention and correct my handling technique (and attention span) for a while. And, in reality, they probably weren't really as close as my imagination told me they were, but it opens up your sweat glands nonetheless.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Chad:

I echo "Oldherper" I have no idea about your Newpaper story.

I also support many of the NRA positions. Seldom do you hear of a properly trained and permited gun owner getting into trouble.

One of the problems today is few individuals are willing to take responsibility for their actions and try like hell to find a reason or someone to blame for their actions.
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Al

You can take the animal out of the jungle but you can never take the jungle out of the animal.

it's in the First Amendment....freedom of press. The only thing that may have been violated were HIPAA laws, the hospital gave up information that violated a patient confidentiality agreement that you most likely signed when admitted.

Nope, nothing came from the hospital.
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Chad Bachman

First that is what my brother said. He knows very little about snakes. I told him he was wrong. He never would have been on NG if there had not been so many escapes in the Dayton area.
I believe that keepers should keep animals if they follow safety rules and have their own antiserum.
Guns are more dangerous and also I agree with your post above that pythons can be as dangerous as venomous.

I am not my brothers keeper. Just a venomous keeper. If they ban snakes it will not effect me. But I don't want bans , I want permit systems that people can live with. Shows like Austin's and the one my brother was only make the public more fearful. By the way I was on that show I made no comment other then people should think before getting these animals.

Jim Harrison

have a look of these if you have broadband. i made a post below giving my opion on the matter.

http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/austinstevens/videogallery/videogallery.html

Jim, I am complete agreement with you. Shows like this are sensationalistic and chaulk full of half truths (if any truths at all). Unfortunately, some televeision personalities (and I use that word loosely in this reference) depend on sensationalism over substance because that is the only way people will watch them. Throwing out bogus stats like he did is dangerous and I for one will be contacting the show. Running a facility much like your's allows me to tell the truth to the general public and recommend shows that "shed" snakes in a positive light; and there are a few good T.V. herp folks out there.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

(well said as you pretty much summed up the outcome of this huge thread and gave your opinion in one nice paragraph : ) and I am starting to loose all faith in educational programing. These shows I am "too" used to so to me they are no more than snake shots. But to the public this is their education and it is done terribly. As far as half truths...I would love to write national geographic as well sense their sensationalism has gone well past acceptable. I was watching a "totally wild" episode because it had a short anaconda segment and i had to turn it off. There was a battle between an shrew and a garter snake and to lead into saying how the shrew is venomous they were saying the snake is the contendor without venom. I was under the impression the Duvernoy's glands were venom glands. To say the garter snake is working without venom would be like saying the boomslang is not venomous as well. National Geographic should know that and say that. But the point that made me turn off the program was when the anacondas "fangs" sunk into the hand of one of the professionals. Please tell me which programs you would recomend.

P.S. Thank you for the conversations at Tinley...your table was a nice break from ball pythons

Jim, you are right on the money. I've seen your posts on other boards as well (I'm Trex) and couldn't agree more. I personally believe that all of his scenes use captive snakes and that some may even be venomoids.... The latest show had this camera underground, filming a monitor killing another monitor, to reinforce Austin's theory on why the big guy wouldn't come out to play. Did they sacrafice a monitor for the sake of the show?

Anyway, I can't stand the way he abuses the animals, even if they're captive, they're still being abused.

did you happen to notice anything a little different about the monocle he had with him? Like maybe some strange marks on the sides of its head underneath the eyes? Maybe that explains his careless handling and "quick recovery" from the bites that he has taken on his shows. Remember, these shows are not of the type found on public broadcasting, these are made for ratings and guys such as Irwin or Austin appearing to put themselves in great danger with a supposedly deadly snake and try to act as if they "just happened" across this animal in an unscripted circumstance is what gets the ratings. Remember, it is television and it is under fictional circumstances for the most part and be grateful that you are knowledgable enough to know the difference.

Yeah, I'd be willing to bet that if he were faced with the prospect of actually having to handle a wild, hot fast elapid...say, a good sized Taipan or Mamba...all by himself... he'd pee his pants and run out of the room like a little schoolgirl. The guy is a complete clown and an embarrasment. Unfortunately, I'm afraid he'll be around for a while. Unless, of course, his handlers get their snakes mixed up one day....
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

That is what I would tend to believe also. I would say that definately that he is using "props" for his performances on talk shows and judging by his handling skills, I would say in his "wild" scenes also. I know for a fact that Irwin uses them for his appearances on the talk shows he is on.
K

That they use them for the "King of the wild" episodes when they have to deal with venomous snakes.
K

That's awfully hypocritical don't you think?

Well, I don't know how that would be hypocritical, I was simply explaining the possiblity that maybe(pobably definately) Austin was simply following methods of others on animal planet. I cannot say for sure because I don't who sold the snakes to him, but I can tell you that others on the talk shows and on animal planet have used those methods before. I am not going to get into a big pissing contest with you or others. I was just trying to shed some light on the situation.

since you are one of the venomoid producers. Maybe it's just me, but if I was a venomoider, I sure as hell wouldn't be making comments about how other people are using them.

No, I don't feel it was the "pot calling the kettle black" since I was not really bashing them, I was just making a statement about how everything on television is not as it is claimed to be. I also think that it shows that venomoids are acceptable in some circles of this hobby. I find it funny that everytime someone on television uses a venomoid, all the antivenomoid crowd that are usually here, are nowhere to be found and have no comments on it, but it is a whole other story when someone posts one for sale or comes on here asking questions about it. Everyone has a right to make a stance on the issue, but why be biased about it? what, just because someone like Steve Irwin or others on animal planet are on television, it is okay for them to use them and nobody has anything to say? Not trying to start a flame war, just bringing up a few points.

Nope, I don't think it's OK. I am anti-venomoid, but I'm not going to pass judgement on you because you're not. That's not really what this thread is about anyway. I think it's not OK, because it's misleading. I never hear them say "Oh, by the way, this animal has been physically altered so as to render it harmless." The idea is to make the audience think they are handling fully equipped venomous animals so they will look like some sort of macho hero and that's not the case at all. It's misrepresentation, pure and simple.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I agree and that was more of my point. Like I said, I have known that about animal planet for sometime, but I just haven't heard anyone mention it.

and I also don't feel that it is right for ANY of the so called experts on TV to be using a venomoid. Especially when they are completely capable of handling a hot snake. If they are as much of conservationists as they claim to be, I would think that they would be completely disgusted with the fact that someone is taking a snake that they supposedly love and surgically altering it. I'm not biased towards any of the people you see on TV. I personally feel that most are a load of mis-information and each one of the over-priveleged "experts" has something different to say about the same subject. Do I claim to know more than any of these people? No. But I also don't have someone with a field book identifying species for me, either, like most of them do, if they don't plant the snakes themselves. As entertaining as they may be, most couldn't hold a candle to some of the people in this very forum.
As far as insurance purposes go (I know you didn't mention this), that's the biggest load of BS I've heard. Do they de-fang and de-claw every tiger and wild cat they show on late night TV? No. So why would they use venomoids for safety? A wild cat is more dangerous to the crowd and public than ANY venomous reptile. Just ask Roy Horn. There is no reason to have a venomoid snake. If the snake get's too close to someone else, the handler isn't doing their job, period. Saying "if" it was a venomoid isn't going to correct the real problem. It's only putting a beautiful creature at risk to compensate for someone elses lack of "expertise".

Sorry...off color joke but I couldnt help but think of how big this venomoid debate has gotten in this hobby and how it makes me think of a herp version of the stances on abortion.

coathanger.

***Unless, of course, his handlers get their snakes mixed up one day.***

"Wait, that one's venomous! Oops, too late!"

Keep denying what you don't want to believe. Why would he be so different from others that appear on the talk shows?? what, do you think he is above the guidelines of the producers?? Keep denying what you don't want to believe.

I was denying nothing. My post was simply sarcastic humor to the scenario oldherper put forth. How could you possibly infer any denial of venomoids on tv from what I posted?

Bill Huseth

I read your post the wrong way. I know that when this subject was mentioned, there were alot of people on this forum denying the whole thing with Irwin/venomoids. Once again, I apologize.

n/p

Well,

First off I don’t agree with any sensationalist show but feel I need to back up the guy here.

If you knew anything about Austin Stevens you wouldn’t make comments like that.

For one he has been handling venomous snakes since he was 12 while growing up in South Africa. Trust me on this one because I have done it too, you end up catching your first cobras and mambas at that age and that is just the way it is. None of this [first hot snake], [best hot snake] etc etc. It is learn by trial and error.

In his early twenties he lived for months in a cage in Pietersburg with over 40 venomous snakes including mambas, cobras and puff adders, to raise money for charity. During the course of his sitting he was bitten, refused to leave the cage and was treated there and then.

This is a man who has come from a land and lifestyle you cannot begin to imagine. One so far removed from your first world "venomoid" culture that it is hard for you to believe any different.

Sensationalist he might be, but there is no other was these days to educate the masses unless it is entertaining. If this causes more good than harm, then it has worked.

Regards,
krt

"Austin Stevens once spent 107 days--and nights--living in a tank with 36 of Africa's most venomous and lethal snakes. On Day 96 he was bitten by a cobra. He was treated in the tank and remained there until day 107-- when he set a world record."

But....

>>First off I don’t agree with any sensationalist show but feel I need to back up the guy here.
>>
>> If you knew anything about Austin Stevens you wouldn’t make comments like that.

We "know" what we are told and what we "see" (what we see is subject to manipulation). What we are told is that he is a photographer. What we see is pi$$-poor handling technique and sensationalism.
>>
>> For one he has been handling venomous snakes since he was 12 while growing up in South Africa. Trust me on this one because I have done it too, you end up catching your first cobras and mambas at that age and that is just the way it is. None of this [first hot snake], [best hot snake] etc etc. It is learn by trial and error.

If that's the case, one would think he would either be a better venomous handler by now or he would be dead. Does he forego the proper handling in favor of more drama?
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>>In his early twenties he lived for months in a cage in Pietersburg with over 40 venomous snakes including mambas, cobras and puff adders, to raise money for charity. During the course of his sitting he was bitten, refused to leave the cage and was treated there and then.

Bitten by what? If he was bitten by one of the snakes you mention, then he is a fool. Anyone that would take a bite from one of those and refuse to go to the hospital has a screw loose and, in my opinion, doesn't set a very good example. But, you say "including mambas, cobras and puff adders". That indicates that not all of the 40 were of that class. If it was a house snake that bit him, then it's a real big "so what?"...something like that would make it nothing more than more sensationalism. He seems to get bitten an awful lot...something like twice on tape so far? How many times has he been bitten off-camera? Were they all venomoids? Is that why he hasn't ended up on a respirator yet? What message does that deliver to the kids that are watching? That you can take a hit from a cobra and be back on the air next week? No big deal?
>>
>>This is a man who has come from a land and lifestyle you cannot begin to imagine. One so far removed from your first world "venomoid" culture that it is hard for you to believe any different.

I've spent plenty of time in third world countries, so I think I can imagine the lifestyle. Your post makes it sound like every 12 year old kid is out catching venomous snakes and that's just the way you grow up...a whole country full of Austin Stevens clones. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just like in the good 'ol USA, the vast majority of the people in places like South Africa, where there is an abundance of venomous snakes, spend their time AVOIDING the snakes...including the 12 year olds. In fact, that's what makes the sensationalism work....playing on the fear. There is no "venomoid culture" in the US. There is a small percentage of herpers that desire, purchase and keep venomoid snakes, but hardly enough to be called a culture....maybe a sub-culture at best. The vast majority of people in the US that keep venomous species keep specimens that are fully intact. The difference is that most of them use the right tools and techniques for the job.
>>
>>Sensationalist he might be, but there is no other was these days to educate the masses unless it is entertaining. If this causes more good than harm, then it has worked.

That would be true if there were any real education involved. Thus far, I haven't seen any.

OH
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I agree and have yet to learn a thing from Austin Stevens show. And I would not recomend someone watching that show without a knowledgable person next to them to correct him and provide an example. I watched the EDB show with a friend where at one point he was sitting on the beach with the snakes head between his legs. I explained the snake is very likely a venomoid because nobody would risk 400mg of venom injected into their testicles. And the living with all the snakes stunt...what is he the new David Blain of herping? I can think of one big difference...I am somewhat impressed with David Blains STUNTS. When I was in a local petco I had a manager telling me about the retic being so aggressive. I explained to her this was incorrect of most lines that have been captive for generations. She said she got her info from animal planet and animal planet said they were mean. Luckily she respected my knowledge a lot and I was able to drill some sense into her. But there is another manager who refuses to believe retics are no different than any other big snake and she does not like them and thinks they will be mean when they "get big" even if they are docile babies. This makes no sense but this is what poor examples and sensationalism on animal planet like Austin Stevens show do. Whether or not a retic is an aggressive animal is not a big deal but and example handling venomous snakes and incorrect facts is a slightly bigger deal and both harm this hobby. I have to stick up for Steve Irwin here because I have seen his show with a big python breeder and he seemed in support of the hobby and he does not use his show to put fear of snakes in peoples minds and rather the opposite. In fact is nutty behavior just makes people think he is crazy and they would never do the stuff he does. As clownish as he is, I have yet to see anything like Austin Stevens show and while there is lack of education on it, at least the facts he has are usually accurate. And to me that is better than a bunch of wrong facts. please do confuse this post and believe I am saying Croc Hunter is a great show and I am holding it high..I am mearly saying it is better than Stevens and has some good qualities.

mate,

For a old herper you seem to lack wisdom. I am not going to get sucked into a flame war and will finish my side of this conversation with the following:

1) Austin was bitten by a cobra; he did not leave the cage because it would have meant the end for the charity drive. Believe it or not, in those days people (although slightly off centre) put their beliefs and values above their own safety. Sensationalism did not exist in 1980 and still doesn’t in Pietersburg. Some of the greatest icons of history were crazy, it is not a flaw.

2) I have lived my entire life in Africa and know all to well the fear people have of snakes. This by no means detracts from the experience one gathers from being exposed at a very young age to some of the world’s quickest and deadliest snakes. All due respect to new world vipers, but they have nothing on African elapids.

3) You should not jump to conclusions about a man before you know at least more than his name and what a 50 min show can tell you. If you believe that someone that has been bitten by snakes is someone that does not know what they are doing then perhaps you should say the same of Bill Haast? To my knowledge Austin first got bitten by a puff adder at the age of 19 while fighting in the Angolan war. He traveled 800km by truck on dirt roads and then a few hundred more by sesna air plane before he reached his destination. Spent 7 days in a coma and 3 months in hospital to save his arm.

This in addition the many many years of his life he has given to the conservation herpetology and other environmental issues on the African continent, put him higher in my books than some guy in the states who keeps some corns and some naja (although I have no problem with that either).

Regards,
K

***If you believe that someone that has been bitten by snakes is someone that does not know what they are doing then perhaps you should say the same about Bill Haast?***

Perhaps you should get a clue. I'm pretty sure I've never heard as ridiculous a comparison in my life as that of comparing a sensationalist clown such as Austin Stevens to a 3-million-snake
milker like Bill Haast.

Bill Huseth

>>Hey, you know what? I'm not trying to engage in a flame war with you. (I'd go find an armed opponent for that) I simply disagree with your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion (however flawed) and I'm entitled to mine. You aren't going to change yours and I'm not going to change mine. I think the guy is a clown. I'm sure he has his good points, everyone does. I don't know of a single contribution he's made to the science of Herpetology, but if you do...good for you.

I stand by my statement that anyone that refuses to go to the hospital, with the exception of a few people who have apparently made themselves immune to certain venoms, is an absolute fool if he refuses to go to the hospital for treatment after taking a hit from a cobra, REGARDLESS of the reason. Most (reasonable) people would prefer to live to try again than to die in a cage trying to prove a point.

Also, comparing Austin Stevens to Bill Haast (I have met Bill on many occasions), is like comparing PeeWee Herman's boxing skills to Mike Tyson's. Austin Stevens is not a Herpetologist. He is a Photographer. There is no comparison.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I was wondering, what does Austin take pictures of? Everyone thinks that just because he plays the part of a "snakemaster" on tv, thay he must photograph snakes and other reptiles. I think he probably photographs weddings and the such. So not only is he a terrible actor when he plays a snakemaster, but his skills as a photographer seem in doubt as well.

Most of the shows do use "planted" animals but I feel that does not take away from the educational aspect of a show. I have never heard of anyone using venomoids when showing people handling hots. Does anyone know for a fact this goes on? I honestly think the general public would think that is a good thing and necessary. It is just the world we live in. I think that is morbid to even think about dark secrets that could be going on behind closed doors of these animal programs. That would just make this even more circus like. Anyone have problems with Jeff Corwin? I admit his show is one of the best. Even respected people like Mark O'Shea pull some crazy stuff like the search for the 40 ft anaconda and that program on E. deschauenseii doing DNA tests to find if it were a hybrid or another species. Didn't Dirksen already make that clear? Anyway..this post was just for the sake of more ramble in this thread using the extra fifteen minutes I have right now. Please feel free to respond to this because I would really be curious to get more opinion on what I mentioned though.

Use of venomoids on shows like Leno, Letterman and other talk shows is common. The networks would never risk their big stars. Also all media stars are insured for a lot of$$$$ and are limited often by contract on what they can do in their off time that is risky. No insurer would allow the star or others to be put at risk if they have to foot the bill. So in comes venomoids for filming. As far as when staging captures I know of a couple times venomoids were used and think several others were to. I have been asked by producers why I don't use them or ice down my animals when they have filmed them. These are common techniques used by some people when filming.
True often you do have to stage captures to get the best camera angle and because the company wants something to show for its money. Real herpers know that you rarely find everything your looking for.
Corwin and O'Shea do good shows. I like Dr.Bruce Means, Dr.Fry ,Dr.Harry Greene and a new couple who where on Snake Wranglers with us. Their show was Death Adder Duet and they had a show on AP last year that was very good too. Names were Craig and Jackie from Australia Reptile Park . If you see their show and like it write AP. Let AP know you want good shows or we will only get people like Austin Stevens.

Jim Harrison

I heard you used to be a kickboxer. Do you remember a fighter named Mike "tension" Nevitt for team USA years back in american style IKF? Just curious.

I was fighting back when PKA and WKA were active. I also had a couple fights under ISKA. Most of my fights were Tradional Muay Thai bouts. Bill Wallace and Benny the Jet were big when I was just starting. Email me direct if you want to talk about Kickboxing and MMA. After 45 fights I am lucky to remember my own name.Sorry.

Jim Harrison
Email kyreptil@pop.mis.net

I have sparred with Mike Nevitt a couple of times. He is awesome. I've been kickboxing for quite awhile. Haven't started training again since my knee surgery, I really should this reptile keeping is getting me flabby lol.
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Jeff West

I became friends with Mike back when I was in High School...training with that guy was brutal. 23-0 in his kickboxing career and I believe he is undefeated as a boxer now. But I tore him up on the MX track and snakes creep him out lol. Where are you from Jeff?

Hey Jim
I was active back then myself. I was scheduled to fight Benny's cousin, but I can't think of his name right now. Age does that to you. I fought in Japan for the middlewieght title back in '81, going over with Howard Jackson, if you remember him? I lived in Thailand for a number of years, fighting Muay Thai. But...getting back to the topic at hand....

Wow Jim, Chris kept telling me you were a pretty smart guy. Now I know you are. HA HA HA !!! I wrote Animal Planet as well I agree with you.