Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hypo het for Ultra

Do you think this is related to the het ultra?

...quite simply, nobody has identified an ultra-based ghost (nor an ultramel ghost either). With that in mind, it's impossible to look at a ghost and say whether it's homozygous for ultra, or het ultra/het amel (ultramel).

Since homozygous ultra doesn't look all that different from hypoA, pairing your ghost with your hypo might tell you something... if you get some hypoish and some normal hatchlings, then your ghost is possibly carrying the ultra gene. (Alternatively, it could be homozygous for a third type of hypo, say... sunkissed, and het hypo A... because in homozygous form, hypoA, sunkissed, and ultrahypo don't look different enough... lava is the only known hypo that is totally different in appearance.)

The BEST way to test your snake for ultra is to breed it to an amel. You heard me right. Ultra's shown itself to be allelic to amel, so if an animal is het for ultra AND het for amel, you'll get ultramels. (Note that an animal cannot be homozygous for amel and still het ultra, nor can it be homozygous for ultra and still het amel.) Ultramels have a distinct appearance that is visible even in the hatchlings.

Anyway... if you breed your ghost to an amel and get 100% ultramels, you've got yourself an ultrahypo-based ghost. If you breed it to an amel and get some ultramels and some amels, you've got yourself an ultramel-based ghost.

Haffun.
-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

The statement: "so if an animal is het for ultra AND het for amel, you'll get ultramels"
should read: "so if an animal is het for ultra AND het for amel, the animal is actually an ultramel"
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

What is the current thought as to the origins of this "morph"? Does it still appear to be the case that this is the result of Gray Rat influence? If so, what evidence is there in this gene being expressed in the gray rat? Has anyone tried breeding trials at all?

I have to say that I am more than a little shocked at the lackadaisical manner in which this subject has been addressed by many in the corn community. I am not trying to start up an "anti hybrid/intergrade" post here, but the way in which many people have said to themselves "Gray Rat genes? Oh well!" really fascinates me.

It is true that I am not a hybrid/intergrade fan, but I cannot imagine that anyone could be pleased with having purchased one thing, only to discover that it is something else entirely. If someone wants hybrids, they get no grief from me, but EVERYONE ought to get what they pay for!

I guess I'm just shocked that there is not more said about these lines of thought by those who bought corns for a gene that did not originate in corns. Probably showing my age again...

Any information or insight you (or others) might supply would be greatly appreciated.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I might be way off on this, but it would seem to me if the ultra is on the same locus as amel, the gene must come from corns. A grey rat would have different DNA and the chance that the amel gene is at the same locus would be slim. The only way to solve the ultra mystery is to run DNA test on the corn, the grey rat, and the ultra. This shouldn't be that difficult if one is so inclined.

It's not such a fantastic thought as you might think. If I recall correct, there's a ratsnake (obsoleta) amel gene that IS allelic to the cornsnake amel gene... Corns aren't THAT genetically different from other North American ratsnakes... (Heck, I vaguely recall some mention of a kingsnake amel gene being compatible with corn amel... but I could be mis-remembering...)

The fact that the gene is allelic to the corn amel gene doesn't prove or disprove anything, unfortunately.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

I proved it out this spring, I bred an amel male corn to a coastal Cal-king and got 6 albino and 3 normal babies. I had no idea the calking was het amel! There are pics of two of them on the Hybrid forum right now, posted by "zfelician"
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FireDrake

1.2 Corn Snake - Basilisk, Belladonna and Kestrel
1.1 Tangerine Honduran - Hellboy and Watchtower
0.1 Western Hognose - Midori
1.0 Ball Python - Mandrake
0.1 California King Snake - Deneb
2.0 Jungle Corn Snake - Lestat and Uruk-Hai
1.1 Macklots Python (Timor) - Velociraptor and Wraith
1.1 Mali Uromastyx - ET and Aughra
0.2 Bearded Dragon - Chupacabra and FoxGlove
0.1 Rose-hair Tarantula - Shelob
0.1 Cinnamon Pearl Cockatiel - Bubo
2.0 Society Finch - Pesto and Clockwork
3.0 Bettas - Hydra, Maticore and Kraken
1.0 DSH Cat - Bartelby Firecat

Amel genes are allelic with the Corn snake gene, as has been proven by getting amel offspring in F1 hybrids. It kinda surprises me, but it doesn't seem so unusual.

From what I understand, those who are in a position to know (IE: those who first came out with the line) aren't talking anymore. Joe Pierce has been attempting to get more info out of them (see the other forum), but to no avail...

With no further evidence either way, there's not much we can do but go 'oh well'. There ARE those who intend to get out of the morph due to its history, but there are many more who don't care and will keep going with them.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

Just as Burbrink proved Slowinski's corn to be a distinct species, the ultra could just as easily be proved to have grey rat blood in it or not.

Likely so... if someone has the lab resources to test it, I'd like to see them do so (it might help, might not). But amel compatibility with grey rat morphs does not in and of itself prove anything either way, which is the point I was trying to make.

Then again, if SOME of the line are hybrids and SOME are not... genetic testing would have to be performed on each and every ultra snake... and goodluck getting people to pay for that.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

So, because we can't know for sure that they're hybrids (even though we may strongly suspect it to be the case, given the slips of the tongues that occurred early on in the process), we're just going to say that they're corns and go on with our plans as if nothing is astray? I guess that's the only conclusion left to many in the hobby, but...

Wow.

Well, I mean no disrespect to anyone, and I really MEAN that, because I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who is working with those lines! But I, for one, will not buy anything that is even remotely related to the Ultra gene, or that might be "tainted" with that breeding in any way.

For some breeders, I'll be able to ask "What's the make up of this animal," and that will suffice for me. For others, I guess I just won't be buying anything from them again. That's too bad.

Again, I have no problem when others say they want hybrid animals, but I do hope everyone can now see how pervasive the hybridization of these animals can become due to the sloppy record keeping and/or dishonesty of a few. It only takes one "less than reputable person" to mix in a little of something other than corn, keep his mouth shut for a few generations, make his money, then drop the bomb on everyone else, to ruin it for those of us who (while respecting the rights of hybrid owners) will not be able to have the SAME freedom of choice, by choosing NOT TO HAVE hybrids in our collections.

Boy, I really didn't want this to turn into a discussion on the issue of hybrids, but I am really upset by all this. All I can point out is this one thing...my keeping, breeding, and selling corns, in no way hinders those who keep, breed, and sell hybrids. But can the hybrid sellers offer me the same guarantees? Obviously not...

Sorry for the rant, Kat. You know I am not ranting at or about you here. If you are offended that I took this opportunity to air out those veiws set forth above, I'll apologize in advance.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I think one or the other of us is misunderstanding things...

From what I understand, most people are taking a wait and see approach, and there are even people who are holding steadfast to the conviction that they're not hybrids, based on observations. I'm not aware of anyone who intends to tell people that ultras are pure corns, though atleast one person has said they'll only mention the possibility of hybrid background if asked.

And finally, it's not an all-or-nothing preposition. It's quite possible that SOME ultras are hybrids and SOME are not. The biggest problem is that the person who is saying they're of hybrid ancestry is also the same person who insisted for years that they were pure. The point is, he told a lie, but the problem is we don't know which half was the lie.

Finally, from what I understand, the ultra gene itself did not originate in grey rats, but the original snake, or one of the original line, was paired with grey rat hybrid corns... hence the opportunity for some hybrid/some not.

If you haven't read the thread on the other site, you might want to, atleast as far as the hybrid issue goes. I can paraphrase things till I'm blue in the face, but odds are I've missed something.
-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the same person who had to have lied about the whole "are there, or are there not" hybrids in the mix, the same person who says the Ultra gene originated in the corn side of the equation? If that is the case, personally, I find that really difficult to believe.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I was under the impression that the original snake was found by Mike Falcon, and was a wildcaught corn. I can't remember if Joe P. (the guy doing most of the investigative work) ever got ahold of MF to confirm this or not. (MF was NOT the one who said the lie about their ancestry... that was someone else.)

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

...
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Well, I mean no disrespect to anyone, and I really MEAN that, because I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who is working with those lines!

One of the biggest supporters of the Ultras-are-not-hybrids theory is Rich Z, for an example... Other people who are working with the morph are Serpwidgets, Joe Pierce, and myself (with all of us having varying viewpoints on the hybrid/not-hybrid issue).

I suspect there are people out there who are breeding ultras without paying attention to any of the information on the web, possibly breeders out there without internet access either...
It's definitely becoming more and more of a minefield to navigate for those who are concerned about the purity of the lineage... but I don't see the trend reversing any time soon.
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

Well, I hope it really IS a misunderstanding on my part. We're probably not ont he same page, because of some other information I got from a source other than the site upon which much of the discussion has taken place.

I'll just sit this one out, then. But this is not the first, nor the last, time this type of problem has/will come about. I really think it is time for all of us concerned with how we want our collections to progress to sit back and take a real hard look at what is available out there.

Scary...
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Yeah... Frankly, I think the gene is cool enough that it's worth playing with, but unless this issue gets settled definitively, I'll have to sell each and every snake from that line with a little asterisk warning people that it might not be pure corn... Sucks, but ah well.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

All of my Ghost corns from my blue eyed Ghost group have ruby red pupils. I have no Ultra Hypo blood in my collection so I would say that no it is not a relation. But I also do not know the complete genetics behinh the ultra Hypos so therefore it may be that the same triat was develop in two or more different breeding groups.
Thanks
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com