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Ignorance is Bliss-Please Take This as Constructive

spook Oct 19, 2004 01:51 PM

I just wanted your attention.

I have had reptiles for about three years now and my dragon was my first. I read articles on them for 3-4 months and a book before my first purchase and regularly read this forum as it was growing up. I would not consider buying any other animal or species without thouroughly researching it. What is astounding to me is I see so many very basic problems that would not come up if folks read or investigated what they are getting into. A few of the folks here answer 90% of the questions and I hope everyone appreciates them. (Some get upset and even arrogant from time to time, but you can't blame them.) It is cruel to take on animals that you are not prepared for.

Thank you to all the knowlegeable contributors. I have learned a lot. All of you who have not picked up a book or researched these animals please do so you can be the best owner possible.

Thanks for the soapbox. Spook

Replies (25)

tim5580 Oct 19, 2004 02:27 PM

Researching is good before you buy an animal, I always do and there is no excuse to not do it before you get any animal. That is why I am in this forum now

Can you recommend a good book on beardeds?

>>I just wanted your attention.
>>
>>I have had reptiles for about three years now and my dragon was my first. I read articles on them for 3-4 months and a book before my first purchase and regularly read this forum as it was growing up. I would not consider buying any other animal or species without thouroughly researching it. What is astounding to me is I see so many very basic problems that would not come up if folks read or investigated what they are getting into. A few of the folks here answer 90% of the questions and I hope everyone appreciates them. (Some get upset and even arrogant from time to time, but you can't blame them.) It is cruel to take on animals that you are not prepared for.
>>
>>Thank you to all the knowlegeable contributors. I have learned a lot. All of you who have not picked up a book or researched these animals please do so you can be the best owner possible.
>>
>>Thanks for the soapbox. Spook
-----
**********************************
Tim W. My Pictures
0.1.0 Dumeril Boas
0.1.0 Kittens
0.0.1 Leopard Geckos

It rubs the lotion on it's skin. It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.
Bleach and Ammonia make Ammonium Chloride = Dead you

heartmountain Oct 19, 2004 02:54 PM

The Bearded Dragon Manual is the only halfway decent one out there. The problem with books is that husbandry has taken great leaps in the last 5 years or so and the books haven't caught up yet.

Sean
-----
Heart Mountain Herps

tim5580 Oct 19, 2004 03:08 PM

Yeah, I always try to look for the most recent book I can get if it looks good. I always like to have a book around though not just use care sheets I found on the internet, though some are really good.

>>The Bearded Dragon Manual is the only halfway decent one out there. The problem with books is that husbandry has taken great leaps in the last 5 years or so and the books haven't caught up yet.
>>
>>Sean
>>-----
>> Heart Mountain Herps
-----
**********************************
Tim W. My Pictures
0.1.0 Dumeril Boas
0.1.0 Kittens
0.0.1 Leopard Geckos

It rubs the lotion on it's skin. It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.
Bleach and Ammonia make Ammonium Chloride = Dead you

InTheBlue Oct 19, 2004 03:48 PM

!
-----
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

tim5580 Oct 19, 2004 05:45 PM

NO, but I was considering starting to (for food for animals, not to place in peoples throats after I killed them).
And Buffalo Bill raised Deathshead or Death's Head (not sure how it spells exactly) Moths, not silkworms.

>>!
>>-----
>>A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
>>adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
>>Ralph Emerson
-----
**********************************
Tim W. My Pictures
0.1.0 Dumeril Boas
0.1.0 Kittens
0.0.1 Leopard Geckos

It rubs the lotion on it's skin. It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.
Bleach and Ammonia make Ammonium Chloride = Dead you

InTheBlue Oct 19, 2004 05:51 PM

Yes I realize that he used different moths and I know what silkworms are for. I think you are taking offense to something that was all in harmless fun.... what is it with people these days? Everyone seems so quick to catch an attitude.
-----
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

tim5580 Oct 19, 2004 05:55 PM

I laughed when I read it actually, I didn't take any offense.
Sorry if my reply angered you.

>>Yes I realize that he used different moths and I know what silkworms are for. I think you are taking offense to something that was all in harmless fun.... what is it with people these days? Everyone seems so quick to catch an attitude.
>>-----
>>A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
>>adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
>>Ralph Emerson
-----
**********************************
Tim W. My Pictures
0.1.0 Dumeril Boas
0.1.0 Kittens
0.0.1 Leopard Geckos

It rubs the lotion on it's skin. It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.
Bleach and Ammonia make Ammonium Chloride = Dead you

InTheBlue Oct 19, 2004 07:54 PM

Just no body language or tone of voice to draw from...LOL

Later
-----
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

tim5580 Oct 19, 2004 08:00 PM

I just reread the post and noticed I typed no in caps (typo) and it does come off a little mean sounding.
My bad

>>Just no body language or tone of voice to draw from...LOL
>>
>>Later
>>-----
>>A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
>>adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
>>Ralph Emerson
-----
**********************************
Tim W. My Pictures
0.1.0 Dumeril Boas
0.1.0 Kittens
0.0.1 Leopard Geckos

It rubs the lotion on it's skin. It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.
Bleach and Ammonia make Ammonium Chloride = Dead you

InTheBlue Oct 19, 2004 03:44 PM

I agree. There is so much more knowledge now than there was even 3 years ago and new diseases that have sprung up.....

It's very easy to come in here and make a post like that. It's also kind of offensive to some people. Belittleing someone because they weren't "as good as you" in the way they researched the animal they bought isn't really a constructive way to get the message across.

Maybe some of these people bought from a petstore and were misinformed. A nuimber of things could be the reason for thier lack of knowledge. Using the word ignorance in my opinion is not the way to attract someone to learn. It would only push away. That is why there are places like this, to learn. If you want to send a message, try putting out flyers with information about forums and online help at petstores or something that is REALLY constructive.

And there is a post like this about every two to three months in this forum..... always from someone fairly new.
Later,
Robert
-----
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

spook Oct 19, 2004 11:46 PM

Read what you want into it. You can only be offended if you want to. I thought I made my intentions clear, but you got your shot in. By the way I may be new to reptile, but I raised, trained and competed nationally in the canine world for 25 years, for what it's worth.

zz Oct 20, 2004 11:13 AM

I get your intent... and I agree. I think you were trying to discourage people from buying the animal (because it was cute, on sale, or small) and THEN trying to find out about it. (I see posts like this all the time....."new to beardies, just bought one at the Reptile show...I have other reptiles, meant to buy a snake and came home with a beardie....Help, just took in a beardie from a friend who couldn't take care of it"...etc.)

I wanted to buy my first Beardie as an impulse the first time I saw one. They were so cute and different. However, I didn't know anything about them...how big they got, what they ate...etc. I resisted and then spend a couple months researching...including this forum and other internet resources. I also bought a book I think it is called The Life of your Bearded Dragon. After I read the book, I went to the Reptile and made an informed purchase.

I use this forum as a means of dealing with oddities that are not going to be in a book, drawing from peoples personal experiences (also not found in a book) and share my love for these animals. (It was also a great comfort for me when my first Beardie died!).

Lets all get along here....I love this forum so much and have recommended it to EVERYONE I know with Beardies. I even made a friend here (yea you David!) and bought my baby girl from him.

PS: I think ignorance is the perfect word for what happens. It is something that doesn't happen out of malice toward the animal it is out of lack of information (or misinformation) for proper care (something entirely different).
spooky: know that I understand what you were trying to say (and I am not offended)...I think it needs to be said every couple of months so people can see it and get it....Reptiles are not disposable....they require a lot more than a dog or cat in certain ways.

-----
Hangin with the Herps
ZZ

spook Oct 20, 2004 01:34 PM

Thanks, I mean no harm. Everyone needs to be responsible. These are great pets and this is a great site.

InTheBlue Oct 20, 2004 08:19 PM

I understand completely why you would post this. My point is that type post comes off as a little on the better than side. Someone just starting to post and inquire might be offended to the point they won't ask questions or be afraid they will get attacked for what they are saying.

We all know it happens. People see the cute lizard or puppy without knowing anytihng about it buy it, and have problems. It's a common thing in the pet industry. No sense in making people who have done it feel condemned for it. I just feel the shame on you finger should stay at peoples sides and maybe just mentioning to people who have done this that next time they should study a bit about the species before they buy would spread easier. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar is all I'm saying. I would be much more willing to tell someone else about my mistake if I didn't feel like what I had done was absolutley the worst thing ever. Word of mouth is the strongest tool anyone can possess. Maybe I did come across a litlle harsh but that is just one of my pet peeves. I don't feel people should be made feel like lesser of a person for making a mistake that is as common as this one.

Laters,
Robert
-----
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

spook Oct 21, 2004 01:03 PM

Sorry, I really din't mean to offend, but I will be more careful in my word choice in the future.

spook Oct 19, 2004 11:40 PM

The "Bearded Dragon Manual" is a good start. There are a number of excellent web sites also, use your browser. I also come to this forum for knowledge and help.

JoeBloe Oct 19, 2004 04:14 PM

There might be a few good excuses for not fully researching care of a specific reptile before purchase-did you ever go to a reptile show with two young boys who are anxious to get their next pet? I agreed to get my sons a lizard after doing some basic research on the 5 best pet lizards- we decided on a bearded dragonat the show and purchased a baby and all the necessary supplies on the spot-and then immediately and extensively researched dragons and dragon care-we made a few mistakes and incorrect suppositions at first-the breeders you're purchasing from don't necessarily tell you the whole story, and a buyer might be too trusting of the seller-books don't necessarily cover every detail of your pet's situation-and people's opinions differ,even right here in this forum-however this forum has been and continues to be the best source of info for me, my boys and our dragon-4 months after my slightly impulsive and "uninformed" purchase we have a happy and healthy dragon who's enjoyed by the whole family----I see many people at these shows who purchase particular
reptiles because they look cool on their shoulder or around their necks,asking the seller "what's this called again?.." as they're paying for it, and I know that animal's probably not going to live too much longer - I just hope they seek out the necessary care info and find a website and forum like this one-----Joe

tim5580 Oct 19, 2004 05:52 PM

You should always research it, and you did basic research which is good. You bought the stuff needed for it when you got it. I mean getting something, and not having the right stuff for it, like food, space, or heat requirements. Or buying stuff without an idea of how big it is going to get (mostly snakes and gators).

>>There might be a few good excuses for not fully researching care of a specific reptile before purchase-did you ever go to a reptile show with two young boys who are anxious to get their next pet? I agreed to get my sons a lizard after doing some basic research on the 5 best pet lizards- we decided on a bearded dragonat the show and purchased a baby and all the necessary supplies on the spot-and then immediately and extensively researched dragons and dragon care-we made a few mistakes and incorrect suppositions at first-the breeders you're purchasing from don't necessarily tell you the whole story, and a buyer might be too trusting of the seller-books don't necessarily cover every detail of your pet's situation-and people's opinions differ,even right here in this forum-however this forum has been and continues to be the best source of info for me, my boys and our dragon-4 months after my slightly impulsive and "uninformed" purchase we have a happy and healthy dragon who's enjoyed by the whole family----I see many people at these shows who purchase particular
>>reptiles because they look cool on their shoulder or around their necks,asking the seller "what's this called again?.." as they're paying for it, and I know that animal's probably not going to live too much longer - I just hope they seek out the necessary care info and find a website and forum like this one-----Joe
-----
**********************************
Tim W. My Pictures
0.1.0 Dumeril Boas
0.1.0 Kittens
0.0.1 Leopard Geckos

It rubs the lotion on it's skin. It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.
Bleach and Ammonia make Ammonium Chloride = Dead you

joijoi29 Oct 19, 2004 09:04 PM

I have to speak up on this. I am new to beardies (3 weeks to be exact). I went to the reptile show last Nov. and spoke with numerous breeders and exhibitors about bd's. I went back and spent 5 hours talking again to many breeders and exhibitors. These were people with beautiful, healthy looking dragons. I bought my dragon of 4 weeks old and did everything they told me too. Which included putting him on crushed walnut bedding (i have found out this is horrible), his "veggie" diet that was supposed to be pellets and veggies (now I'm told that is not enough for him)his regular light bulb for heat and "its all he needs" and that sure i should have two beardies to grow up together. This is what hours of research gave me. I feel like an inadiquate (sp?)owner. I am thankful I found this place to help get good advice (and gosh forbid i mention it to my local pet store while purchasing crickets, he says the things i hear from here is b.s.). All of this can make you go crazy! So please don't be too judgmental. At least we are here trying to do our best by these little guys!

spook Oct 19, 2004 11:49 PM

This is a great forum and most of the people are very nice and knowledgeable. When you do your own research you can learn to separate the wheat from the chaff.

fun5oh Oct 20, 2004 03:19 AM

I love this forum. There is alot of great information here. Just a suggestion to moderators, it would be great if there was an advanced search option. I hate to ask a question that has been answered 100 times, so I usually search first, but if I come up with to many posts, I give up and ask, usually the answer was a couple posts down, sorry I have to draw a line. Same with all research in general, the internet especially, a person can look for an answer and get 100's of different opinions, answers, arguments and references. Now you just spent weeks doing this and really got nowhere, so you draw your conclusion, be it right or wrong, you made the best choice in your mind and went with it. It's all you can do.
All I am trying to say is that it can be very difficult trying to research things these days, there is to much info available, and it's changing all the time, it is alot different now then it was when the local library only carried 2 books on a subject.
If you made a bad choice, dont be to hard on yourself.
If you heard of someone making a bad choice, don't be to hard on them, we all learn from our mistakes.
Be happy,
Robin

LdyPayne Oct 20, 2004 07:41 PM

I feel more than a few hours research is needed to learn all you can about any pet, not just reptiles. With all the resources available, you have to spend some time comparing facts from old fiction. You can't just rely on one or two sources for information. There is a reason alot of information about the care and requirements of a reptile conflict. With reptiles that have been around for a long time in the pet trade, what was thought to be tried and true 10 years ago has turned out to be false. Even data from 3 years ago could be incorrect or no longer the best information.

Before I purchased my first reptile, I took the time to learn about it. Intially I wanted to get myself a green iguana. These reptiles always looked cool to me and were in just about every petstore in my area. After about two to three months research online,I learned many facts I didn't know before. I learned they eat nothing but greens, grow up to 5' or more, for males. They required special lighting and large enclosures They also lived 20 years or more with proper care. Males could develop prostrate cancer and neutering them was often recommended. I have since learned this isn't always the best way to go due the risks of anesthesia on reptiles. I also learned green iguanas can be housed trained and allowed to free roam in the house if proper basking spots are set up.

I still find green iguanas interesting however have decided against them for my first reptile due to their more demanding requirements. It was during my research of green iguanas that I came across a species of lizard called bearded dragons. Having always liked dragons (the mythological kind) all my life, the name caught my attention and I had to learn more about them. I did searches on the web for bearded dragons, found the bearded dragon breeders and suppliers network, some local breeders' websites, caresheets and even this forum. I read about the horrors of crushed walnut shells, calci-sand and hot rocks from this forum and other areas, the requirements of proper lighting, heating and size of foods as well as expectant lifespand and size of bearded dragons. I also learned they were one of the most docile lizards out there, content to be held in your hands or sitting on your lap.

I must have spent a good 9 months reading everything I could about bearded dragons, picking up not just one but 4 books about bearded dragons, read numerous caresheets and several pages worth of past posts on this very forum before even posting. I felt very prepared when I finally went out and bought my first reptile ever, a normal phase bearded dragon. I had her for nearly two years without any health problems or issues. I could have simply been lucky in the time I had her (had to find her a new home unfortunately when I found work in another city and spend several weeks between apartments and thus, couldn't bring any of my pets along).

I very strongly agree that anybody and everybody should take the time to research animals before buying them. Another poster mentioned having boys begging for a reptile pet. This is a perfect example of why you should NOT rush to buy an animal. If any parent's children want a reptile pet, encourage them to research the animal before hand. Take them to your local library and research various possibilities. Make a check list for them to fill out or both of you to fill out. Figure out how much time the kids are willing to spend with their pet and how much work. Also figure out how much you can afford to spend on the animal, it's cage and necessary husbandry needs and possible vet trips. Get them past the coolness factor and into the practical factor so the pet doesn't wind up at a shelter or worse, because it grew too big or it's needs couldn't be met. Spending quality time with children to learn about what that special pet they want needs is the best thing to do. Sure kids get impatient and want it now, but stay firm and if they are not willing to spend the time (even a half hour a day) to do research, then they won't have the time to take care of the pet.

Anything thing to keep in mind, don't take one or two people's suggestions for granted. Petstore employees and even reptile breeders at expos, do have one thing in common, they want to sell their product. The more honest and moral breeders will take the time to either print out care sheets of their animals to include with each purchase or explain the proper care requirements. Don't be afraid to contridict what they say or ask questions. This is one reason why it's good to learn as much as possible about the animal before buying it. If you had already read about walnut shells being dangerous for reptiles, you could have brought that up to see what the breeder had to say. They may have been using it for years with no apparent problems, using that substrate doens't guarentee the animal will get impacted, have it's bowels torn or otherwise suffer from being on it, but it increases the risk of such things happening.

InTheBlue Oct 20, 2004 10:20 PM

!
-----
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

spook Oct 21, 2004 01:05 PM

I could not have said it any better. Good post!

JoeBloe Oct 22, 2004 08:40 AM

my post concerning my 2 boys desire for a lizard was not meant to illustrate a reason TO buy one, just my reason FOR buying one--we already have raised a king snake and a milk snake,and they felt ready for a lizard as a pet--it all worked out fine--I was just posting my particular case--not giving advice--realities of life sometimes push aside the practicalities--

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