Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read Hermann’s post on the Albino issue and the poor rate of fertility on an Albino to Albino breeding. Many questioned whether or not this would or could produce weaker offspring? Well, I would have to say with out a doubt yes. Those of you who are also bird breeders (as I once was too) can agree to some of this point. Many of the birds that show, what we call albino traits, are commonly warned not to breed together. Lutino Ringneck Parrots are not breed together (only hets) for fear of the birth defects it causes. White/redeyed Zebra finches are not bred together because it will produce blind birds, Albino Cockatiels are the same way.
It was just a few years ago that one eyed albinos were all too common (I even saw one for sale in the classifieds not too long ago). This was due to a inbreeding/over breeding problem. This discussion is covered about once per year and I remember last year someone posting a great article about the effects of human albinoism on the eyes. It seems very likely that the trait has some effect one the eyes, furthermore it is a defective trait in nature. A bright orange/yellow boa in the wild is not meant to survive very long or else there would be zillions of them. The fact that most (if not all) of the common Albino boas were bred from one animal ancestor should show you how shallow the gene pool really is for this morph. Who can be sure that along with the recessive albino gene that has been past to thousands of snakes, that there is not other negative traits that couple that gene line.
Although Hermann’s post may not be popular, it is indeed a very valid post and worth another visit. Now, whether or not it is proper to stat most of his opinion as fact is up to him and how strongly he believes in it. Please don’t not discount his thoughts just because you do not like the stance he takes on addition issues. I myself have a beautiful albino that I got from Tracy Barker, but it will only be bred to another het. I will do this because I too feel that breeding Albino to Albino is just asking for trouble.
I welcome your thoughts.
Jim Hopkins

to publish the current statistic of breeding albino X albino in Germany (2003).

Reinhold Maugg: one gravid female gave birth to more than 20 slugs, several stillborn babies, 5 premature (still fighting for their live)

Matthias Tüncher: 3 gravid females, two delivered slugs, one litter of healthy babies.

Jürgen Chlebowy: one gravid female, slugs.

Mirco Geyer: one gravid female, more than 20 slugs, several premature babies which died.

Nicole Kunzmann: one gravid female delivered a litter of healthy babies.

This makes 2 reasonable litters out of 7 gravid females. Not the dream of a breeder, I think.

Furhtermore I think that aberrant pattern or color has to be regarded as a kind of genetic defect. And who wants to give the guarantee that there are no further (hidden) genetic defects in such an animal?

What makes things worse is when such animals are bred to one another.

Just look at the dogs: Breeding for special characteristics has caused major health problems in dogs. Maybe we live to see something similar in a few years in boa - morphs.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Importing a very small number of closely related,"pure locality" animals,and,then through a desire to reproduce them to maximum "purity",continuing to breed,and,sell the offspring to other well intentioned individuals,who in turn,do the same. the Danish line of "Amarili" you mentioned before may have been an example? another that could be in trouble theoreticlly would be Hog Island boas,if for no other reason than all of the "pure" stock from a small island would most likely be very closely related?(this is not a "justification" for using them in morph production,but,rather an illustration of a very small genetic base group that could be in trouble theoreticlly by trying to "save" them.)what keeps this from happening in the wild is "probably" the survival "golden rule",as well as the occaisional introduction of new unrelated blood being introduced through natural intergradation,which,in my opinion makes the assertion that there is any such thing as a "pure" locality of boa constrictor in existence anywhere on the planet,not only an unlikelyhood,but,moreover a pipe dream of the misinformed? in the wild they are not only designed to change,but,their very survival may depend on it in some ways we cannot fully comprehend? what some people would like to do is continue to produce them without any change...in nature we must assume that they were not meant to exist this way,or,we would likely only have one type that inhabited a specific area,rather than a vast ever changing variety that cover well over an entire continent?

Hi,
Ralph D had a bad year in boas not because of the morphs but because he changed one little thing. Please stop talking about what you do not know.

I don't know him and I don't have mentioned him in my posting.
Please read thoroughly until you jump on something.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

It is Ralph Davis.

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Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

While I don't doubt that there quite possibly are problems linked to certain genes we breed for, I strongly suspect we won't know for sure until someone maps the DNA of the boa constrictor and various subspecies. Even then, there will be tons of genetic research to be done before a conclusion can be made.

It's all well and good for us to debate what the best thing is for us to do to ensure the survival of our mutually beloved reptiles. Why not start at the source? Become active in preserving the habitats that threaten the extinction of "localities".

The truth is that NOTHING we as humans do is natural, and everything we interact with or get involved in is tainted by that. Even the smallest, most insignificant acts can have one hell of a domino effect which we may never become aware of in our lifetime.

On the flip side of the coin is this: Herman mentioned the selective breeding of traits in dogs...this invariably leads to problems that are "side effects" because only one trait was targeted and all else was ignored.

One could also then argue the value of hybrid vigor, right? If you argue against trait selection, you are, in an indirect way, advocating the breeding of "mutts", which is the opposite scheme. Just an observation.

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Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I think if an albino female was inbred to the point of infertility then it doesnt make a difference if you breed her to a colombian boa from a parallel universe the boa is infertile period. I have heard of female albinos throwing all slugs this is not a new thing. I have seen a couple advertised in the classifieds before, last year 25 slugs this year ready to go yea right lol. I wouldnt touch that with a 10 foot pole. However with the amount of outbreeding going on with the hets and sunglows dont forget hypos carrying the albino genes are outbred! And all the "little" guys buying hets to make albinos are going to be good for the albino gene. Of course if you keep line breeding animals fertility problems will arise. I wonder though. Isnt this the ultimate reason for not having "locality" animals only? I mean no offense to anyone but if you had a special boa constrictor from latitude x and longitude x from the village of pagoogie in the rainforest of the toucan where the rain falls on the mountains only and these were the ONLY ones in captivity and you dont believe in outbreeding for fear of crossing them with another boa 1 mile down the road, where the rain falls mainly on the plain and the village huts are made of grass and not hay, and the pagoogie village burns down devastating the forest and killing the entire boa population leaving those boas as the only ones in captivity wouldnt you just be helping them go extinct by breeding them back to one another for a few years until they have fertility problems and eventually die off. At least we can breed albinos to normals and produce a stronger product and boa. Oh the plight of the pagoogie boa (any similarity in names is only a coincidence). By the way I knew guys who literally went NUTS in Alterna from trying to document locality that they are still out in Texas arguing with a measuring stick trying to figure out how far from catchers mound they found the so and so locality Alterna while playing baseball. No offense to Alterna locality people. LOL

the poor pagoogie boa!!!!
serious, thats the funniest post ive read in a long time!!!
the fact is all boas are freakin cool! inbreeding isnt. all boas in captivity (of a given type) are related period. im sure some of our surinames and guyanas could be related herman... and i know all albinos are related.
and it is a fine line about crossing... a pucallpa crossed with an iquitos... its still a peruvian no? well pucallpa and iquitos are much farther apart than the border of surinam and guyana... surinam X guyana is still BCC right?....but where DO you draw the line? i know i would never cross a hog and a hypo, or a peruvian and a suriname... because those are outside what MY ideals are... everyones got their own ideas on whats ok and whats not... so long as we represent our animals honestly we should all be ok...

again, that post is hillarious... if anyone has a pagoogie boa please email me, ill buy your entire clutch!!!

that inbreeding may be the reason.
But we don't know whether inbreeding is the reason or not. Maybe there is another reason.
Just look at the boas on small isolated islands. The are inbred thousands of years and still OK.

Of course inbreeding is not desirable.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

How do you know they've been in-breeding for thousands of years? How do you know the original population numbers of any type of insular Boa? You don't period. Untill a Gene map is done on every insular Boa population, and traces back the founders through many, many generations, all you are insinuating is heresay. You can say " I know this, I know that," but untill you have documented proof, it means nothing.

common knowledge.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Common knowledge in what? What I stated is the truth. Yes, animals do inbreed, it doesn't matter whether is a island or the mainland somewhere. My point was you don't know how long they've been on a island untill you do genetic research. Certain environmental pressures can cause a animal to evolve faster than others

n/p