Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yes I believe that sand substrate can be done with a low risk of impaction. In fact I have raised several clutches of beardies on it with no impaction or death but the one thing this argument for sand is missing is the fact that sand can never be sanitized once it is exposed to feces. So in effect every time your dragon has a bowel movement he is loading the sand with infectious organisms. Regardless of whether you treat for parasites or not your dragon will always have some sort of parasitic load. What you can control is the proliferation of these parasites. In capitivity many animals develop superinfections. This is basically an extremely high parasitic load in fact it is the second or third highest killer of BDs with Fatty liver disease topping the list. They develop these superinfections by constant contact with their feces.

So to my point when using sand you can never completely remove all of the fecal material in the sand regardless of what method you are using to clean or sift your sand. Therefore it is much more likely for your dragon to develop a superinfection on a sand substrate than a shelfliner substrate where it can be spot cleaned by initially removing as much fecal material as possible with a paper towel and then wiping down with a chlorox wipe and then allowed to sit for at least 30 seconds. After that the the spot can be wiped up and diluted with just water, novlasan, or Natures choice disinfectant all of which are BD safe.

This is my most compelling reason for using Shelfliner and being a Microbiologist and doing my own fecals I have definitely noticed a difference in my animals fecals. Again and as Always this is just my opinion from my experiences.

Iliana
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

You have some really beautiful dragons! I have to say though that if you scooped out the sand around the feces that would remove the infected area wouldn't you say?

This whole sand thing is really becoming redundant. If someone has problems with sand as a substrate they would more than likely have problems with any substrate. I've used sand and never had any problems as have many others. I choose now to use shelf liner but that is because it works best for me. I don't like the sand from home depot because its very dusty and expensive and the sand that walmart carries isn't always in stock. The shelf liner is cost effective for me as it is reuseable.

And the picture that was posted of all the sand coming from that little dragon..... If there was that much crap in that dragon it seems it would have had no appetite and had some serious health problems. Also the way it was worded saying sand and other stuff.... What other stuff? What was it being fed? ( I'm not questioning anyones integrity or honesty here it is just really hard to believe that that much could come form such a small dragon) The stuff in the jar didn't even really look that much like sand.

It's cool to know that your fecals are better since you've started using shelf liner. I do agree that sand could hold parasites and bacteria if not properly cleaned.

It just seems this is a dead horse and everyone has been beating it forever now.

We should start our own "politically Correct" way to advise about the possibilities of problems with sand. That way noone takes it as a personal attack on thier husbandry. If a breeder was using sand and everyone in this forum was beating the antisand horse to new people.... Even if they are keeping it clean and doing everything right they could still lose customers because of the predetermined "sand is bad" idea put in thier head. Of course I suppose that would be great for people who are using shelf liner though wouldn't it?

Just an opinion from a shelfliner user. Not an attack on shelfliner users.

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

I appreciate your compliment. I good percentage of why my animals are colorful is husbandry. I have been a posting in this forum for about 10 months and have been lurking around for about 15 months. I have seen alot of issues come and go but the substrate is definitely a revolving one. You asked a rhetorical question:
I have to say though that if you scooped out the sand around the feces that would remove the infected area wouldn't you say?

Well I believe the answer is a resounding NO. It is extremely hard if not impossible to remove all the feces from a sand substrate. liquid urates seep and spread out in sand, many times reaching the bottom of a 1 1/2" layer of sand. If all the fecal material was removed everyday your tank would never smell and we all know sand develops a urine smell a week or so of use. Just because you cannot see the fecal material does not mean it isn't there. I work in Infectious disease in a Large hospital in Southern California and it is my job to know modes of infection and transmission.
This forum has changed quite a bit in the last few months. Many people have left some that were good contributors and some that contributed the mob mentality that was present here, but in my original post I presented my ideas in a completely non confrontational manner. I merely presented a point of view that explains another reason why shelfliner is beneficial. As I said before this is just my opinion and I am just trying to point the reasons for which I completely switched over to Shelfliner.

Cinder & Candy (before my switch to Shelfliner and yes they are still alive)

-Randy

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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

SAND CAN BE CLEAN AND ODORLESS!!!

Yes, urates seep in...

Thats why i use a SOLID big scoop. I don't "sift" the sand, I scoop out a LARGE amount of sand around and under the mess, throwing away more clean sand then dirty...

I am 100% certain, that no contaminated sand is left. My cage has no smell WHATSOEVER, unless you count the smell of the veggies, food.

Its much more work to do right, but once again IT CAN BE DONE, WITHOUT SMELL, WITHOUT YUCK, AND SANITARY AS WELL.

When I got my beardie shipped to me, was the ONLY time he had a parasite load. I take fecals to the vet twice the year, and my Beardie is healthy and happy.

It is worth the time and expense and effort to me, to see my Beardie happily digging and snuggling in the sand.

And trust me on that one, no stink here, no urine smell, not a speck of dirty sand, I'm VERY particular about that!!!!
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reps-r-us

Care is the difference.
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

I agree that you were appropriate in how you presented the information. I also agree that the mob mentaliltiy needed to go and its too bad that some of the better people left as well.

I also have to say that with your background you would know a little more about microorganisms than most. I also have actually scooped the sand all the way to the bottom of the cage because there was so much fluid in the bowl movement. ANother thought that crossed my mind is what about a cage with several hatchlings or juvies who are all over the place and the actual feces is moved from the original position....

I still have to say though that there are several breeders as well as many hobbiests that produce many nice and healthy babies and they use sand.

I think that shelf liner would be the best substrate for a beggining keeper for sure.

I hope you don't think I was suggesting that you were in the wrong on this post. I was merely posting my opinion about the past few threads as a collective whole.

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

hardware store isn't in the least bit dusty. It was perfect and my dragon seems utterly confortable now. This is the second night in a row I've seen him snuggled up in the sand rather than sleeping on one of his logs all night.

This wasn't meant as a barb, just mentioning it so that those that are currently unhappy with the home depot sand can look at the lowes sand.

A 50lb bag was like $2.50. I used approx. 1/3 of the bag for a nice deep bed of sand in my 55g tank. My BD seems happy not that he's upgraded!
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1 Thoroughbred
1 Mali Uromastyx
1 Bearded Dragon
1 Corn Snake
1 Milk Snake
2 German Shepherd's (with 3rd on the way!)
2 Birds (Conure and Cockatiel)
2 Rabbits
4 Fish tanks (SW and FW)

Again, this is easily taken care off, if you are willing to invest the time and money.

First of all, I don't "sift" the sand.

I have a large and solid scoop that gets the mess and everything around and under it. There isn't a dirty grain left...as a matter of fact I remove a large amount of perfectly clean sand every time I "scoop"...

I have clean and sifted playsand next to the cage, and refill often.

I take fecals to my vet twice the year...I would more often if I noticed a problem with my dragon.

"If" there is a parasitic load, you can easily empty a large cage of the entire sand...with a shopvac, takes about 1 minute.

Then wipe down and sterilize everything with Nolvasan. Keep things to a minimum while treating, and replace with sand once things are taken care off.

Works for me, I have exchanged the entire sand before, not because the dragon was sick (the only time he was sick, was right after shipping him to me) but simply because I wanted to.

Took only about 5 minutes between using the shopvac and having clean playsand ready.
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reps-r-us

Do you sit waiting for your dragons to poop? I know I work from home most of the time which affords me more time then the average person to spot clean cages a few times a day, and to work with the reptiles. I still miss them at times.. Do you believe that the dragon is not spreading fecal matter and dried urates around the cage every time he runs past or through yuck.. I mean the only way you could remove all of it would be to grab that trusty shop vac and do it daily. Or sit there an watch him all day till he poops then quickly scooping it out and surrounding sand. Seems your doing the impossible feat there. "I have exchanged the entire sand before, not because the dragon was sick (the only time he was sick, was right after shipping him to me) but simply because I wanted to". How many times a month do you want to exchange the cage sand completely?

I used to use sand. I personally stopped when breeding dragons came to mind, as well as when my first dragon was being treated for coccidia.. With the decision of selling dragons to the public came the responsibility of making sure they were leaving me the cleanest possible, and not leaving here with an impaction in the making or heavy parasite load. You could never keep a sand cage cleaner then you could a shelf lined cage or newspaper/paper towel cage. Sand to me was much less work then the shelf liner or paper is now.. I wish I could scoop out poop instead of having a liner where it is 100% noticeable if you slack for a day and miss a poop here and there, or let the greens dry out and kicked out of the dish. To keep the liner clean is daily maintenance, but I personally feel it's the cleanest, and safest way I could possibly keep them. When a customer comes, and sees a spotless liner in 15 cages plus baby racks they know the work involve with that, and they get a little assurance they are starting with a clean, healthy dragon to do as they please with. If they wish to put it on sand that's their choice, and I don't twist arms...

At one time or another I used most likely all the substrates available, never calcisand though, but nevertheless sand, and other particulate substrates. Never... knock on wood had an impaction problem to date. But I can say I never had cleaner tanks or healthier animals then I do right now, and I never had a larger collection then I do now using the shelf liners.. I've tried them all, but when I first thought about the shelf liner I never thought others would use it much or take a liking to it. I was wrong and it is widely used today and liked amongst dragon breeders, and keepers. Do what you like as long as the dragon is healthy, and has a clean cages more power to ya, but don't for a second think your getting all the poop and fecal matter out. Your lying to yourself if you believe those grains of sand are not getting scattered around the cage, and not leaving the nice little piles the dragon makes for you....
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

Hey Matt,

I totally agree, I don't remember if it was you who I got the idea from or not but if it was I thank you. Shelfliner looks nice and my dragons have never been healthier.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

my Beardie is healthy now, and has been since I got him (after I got rid of the parasites he got shipped with)

So, he has ALWAYS been healthy on sand, now and then.

Shelfliner looks nice.

Do you "ever" think of it from your Beardies point of view?

Oh, I forgot...they don't have one, they are just dumb animals and its "humanizing" them, to think they might be happier to be able to do what they were meant to do.

After all, they aren' t in "nature" anymore, so why even try to make a effort in that direction.

FYI read my reply to the other person, and you will see just how clean my tank is, just how healthy my dragon is, and that its possible on Sand.

And no, I'm not lying , neither to myself, you, or anyone else.

No need to.
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reps-r-us

I read it, and everything else. I never said you were lying but you do need to chill out. Getting this worked up over substrate isn't going to do anything. This is an argument as old as owning beardies. Matt, Tracey, Alpha, Cricket, Myself and others are all breeders and because of that must have a higher set of standards than your average pet owner. Will sand work for most people ?? sure if you're willing to take the time to clean it properly but there is a chance, not a definite but a chance of problems with it including impaction. My philosophy is why take the chance when there are other options that have been proven to be healthier? I, like Matt, have been around long enough to try just about everything out there. I have also been on this board and others long enough and helped too many people to count deal with sick/dieing dragons due to sand. If you feel that long time members are coming down on you for what they feel is questionable husbandry, whether it be sand, communal housing, feeding pinkies, breeding young, etc. you should probably stop arguing and listen. Nobody is attacking you directly, someone has asked for an experienced opinion and has been given one that's it. If you choose to house your dragons based on out of date husbandry techniques that's your perogative but realize that times have changed and there are constantly new and better ways of doing things coming out all the time.

Sean

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Heart Mountain Herps

and simply because

1. you're a breeder

2. you've been around longer

does not make you or your methods superior over others. Sorry.

Yes, things change. Doesn't necessarily mean for the better or worse.

I have educated myself more then thoroughly on the subject.

Would everyone be healthier in a tiled cell, with air-purifier and astranout food only? I would dare say, yes, we'd be "healthier", or at least, germ-free.

On your quest of superiour cleanliness and sanitation, do not forget the animals mental wellbeing.

You cannot use the excuse of "not humanizing" animals...yes, they do not "think" or maybe not even "feel" as humans. But they have evolved for millions of years, and even taken out of nature recently, doesn't mean that we can force them to live as "un-natural" as possible and still be "happy"...(as happy as you can say an animal is)

But hence, since Dragons can't tell us, and since we can't send them to the shrink...as long as they look and act healthy, and make many babies, its all well.

Respectfully disagree.
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reps-r-us

!
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

Hi
i use already 5 years sand never got problems !
i have the babies the first days on sand and not one of the 200 babies i raised got a impaction problem.
i have a type of sand that is heated 350-400 degree and its for pignons.
becuase i also use parazap i not have problems with parasites any more.
never use bark,crushed walnuts,woodships,calsisand,r those other special died sands they r not good.
byeeee