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Was at the local petshop today and saw two emory's(?) Both are juveniles. One had large dark mahogany blotches (35-36 snout to vent)that looked pretty typical.

The second had much paler grayish tan saddles that were wide across but compressed like in a prarie king(even to the point of twin spotting on the neck. These numbered (snout To vent) about sixty (I bought that one).

While both clearly fit into what we used to call emory's, obviously there is a large difference between the two. Any one want to tackle what these are by the new divisions?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank, body blotches alone can't tell you which subspecies it is, but the very high count sounds certainly like P. g. emoryi. The other might be P. g. meahllmorum, but could have been an g. emoryi with a low count. TC

Thanks Terry. Yes I know that about the body blotches not being the whole picture. Unfortunately I do not have an adequate (updated)key for scale counts etc..... Will be nice when someone sets this down in a book or something (I beleave I have a paper somewhere about it).

I found a webpage that pretty much laid it out that the one I brought home would fall into the sbsps(?) intermontana. The other seemed to fit closest to what was being called a "Chocolate Corn" which was supposed to be a natural intergrade with P.g. guttata. Locality data would have helped but the store owner had no idea.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hi, again, Frank. I think the chocolate corns are guttata slowinskii, or Slowinki's corn. I was wondering about that one, but how it got into a pet shop with the other very different one, I don't know. Were they supposed to be c/b? Slowinski's, also known by other names, have low counts, like gutttata meahllmorum. They are best recognized by sight, however, as I don't think scale counts vary much. One of the reasons guttata ssps. are so hard to define.

The baby with high blotch count and narrow blotches sounded like "intermontana" to me too, at first, but I wondered again how it would have gotten into a pet store. I assumed they were w/c snakes from the area you are in (which is what?). "Intermontana" is not recognized as a ssps., btw. They are included with guttata emoryi. Also, intermontana is a protected snake in each of the states they occur in, so selling them, even having them w/o permit, is illegal. Of course, you don't know for sure what snake you have. I think it's interesting there might be intermontana floating around out there that are unidentified. I have a couple old snakes myself that look like intermontana, but I have no locality data for.

You're right that locality data makes all the difference. Not only are all guttata difficult to i.d. to ssps, but they have been cross bred so much that locality data doesn't apply in most cases, as most snakes are intergrades, or hybrids bt. guttata x emoryi, depending how you look at it. With many states protecting their guttata and other ratsnakes, and the list growing, I think most breeders are going to get away from locality data, as a selling point, and there will be more and more mutts out there. I have a generic guttata that has genes from snakes from probably six or more different states. It is a true melting pot of guttata genes, but legal, as long as guttata is legal somewhere...haha.

Later...TC.

>>Thanks Terry. Yes I know that about the body blotches not being the whole picture. Unfortunately I do not have an adequate (updated)key for scale counts etc..... Will be nice when someone sets this down in a book or something (I beleave I have a paper somewhere about it).
>>
>>I found a webpage that pretty much laid it out that the one I brought home would fall into the sbsps(?) intermontana. The other seemed to fit closest to what was being called a "Chocolate Corn" which was supposed to be a natural intergrade with P.g. guttata. Locality data would have helped but the store owner had no idea.
>>
>>Frank
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>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Funny how the laws work. I am in Florida for example which means I cannot own an Eastern Indigo. But I can own a Texas one though it's protected there. There is a person selling snakes represented as intermontanas on Kingsnake classifieds. I have commonly seen snakes from California and Arizona here (usually mis-IDed).

Interestingly enough, the one with the high blotch count came in as a Bairds (which tells you the reliability of shop identification).

Slowinski's corn is another confusing issue as I have yet to have even seen a picture of one. I had heard that they are pretty much twins of Guttata, but without photos I don't know. The venter patterns were very similar(emory like) between both snakes except the "chocolate" has a more busy pattern (more and darker rounded blotches).

I count my self lucky by the way that I own a w/c anery P.g. guttata from the orrigional population (Hendry Co. Fla). At least I know where the genetics came from for that.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

just went back to the petshop. A couple of interesting observations.

The spearpoint on the "intermontana" is complete like in a P. g. guttata.

The other lower blotch count snake has a incomplete spear point (the markings do not connect for the point but cleanly terminate before the frontal). The venter markings are more like guttata though than the other one.

On a side bar...They got in a snake (about 16" that they claimed was a Gopher Red rat cross. this snake looks exactly like a normal P. g. guttata even in scalation except that the black edged saddles are chocolate. Another good arguement against hybridization.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Funny how the laws work. I am in Florida for example which means I cannot own an Eastern Indigo. But I can own a Texas one though it's protected there. There is a person selling snakes represented as intermontanas on Kingsnake classifieds. I have commonly seen snakes from California and Arizona here (usually mis-IDed).
>>

Frank, I think the laws are funny too, but most of the time they are just not enforced, i.e. the intermontana (illegal unless the person has a permit somehow), and the CA and AZ snakes which are often unlawful, but sold anyway in other states than the origin.

>>Interestingly enough, the one with the high blotch count came in as a Bairds (which tells you the reliability of shop identification).
>>

They rarely know what they're talking about.

>>Slowinski's corn is another confusing issue as I have yet to have even seen a picture of one. I had heard that they are pretty much twins of Guttata, but without photos I don't know. The venter patterns were very similar(emory like) between both snakes except the "chocolate" has a more busy pattern (more and darker rounded blotches).
>>

I have pics somewhere. The Slowinski's are darker than normal corns, but otherwise look like them.

>>I count my self lucky by the way that I own a w/c anery P.g. guttata from the orrigional population (Hendry Co. Fla). At least I know where the genetics came from for that.
>>
>>Frank
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That's cool. I have some locality animals too, notably my Brazos Island rats and a couple corns from southern FL. I happen to like islands and favor corns/rats from island ecosystems...LOL.

TC

terry, if it's ok, could you briefly describe the general differences you've noticed over the years between the insular form & mainland rat/corns? ie.....size, color, habits, habitat, etc. are they actually very, very different? thanks in advance!

Dan, I don't think they are "very" different, but there's enough differences to make me curious and research the influences on the snakes that do affect some differences. I haven't had the opportunity to work with the Keys Ratsnakes, yet, but do know they are from an almost tropical environment, which has to affect their behavior. They also are smaller in length and girth than the standard corns. Color is somewhat different too, in that they have reduced colors, almost hypomelanistic I've heard, and reduced pattern. I think they are a little better climbers.

The Brazos Island Ratsnake, P. g. meahllmorum, is one I've been working with for a few years. Not a true island form as they are also along the coast in extreme s. Texas, near Brownsville, and on some islands, and down into Mexico, but never-the-less, influenced by the remoteness and coastal climate. Being at the southern extreme of the species we indeed see some differences in color, pattern, body shape, size, etc. They tend to be different shades of brown, the blotches are not round or square shaped, more h-shaped, the head is somewhat elongate, snout pointed more, there are less blotches, and there is an incomplete head pattern, and there is very little ventral pattern. They tend to be smaller, barely getting 40 inches, a little thinner, and almost entirely nocturnal.

Look at these couple pics and see what you think...

I do like exploring islands and noticing the affects islands have on animals (just got back from Hawaii, btw), but haven't had much luck getting corns and rats from islands. I did land a pair of corns this summer that are a cross bt. Miami x Keys corns and look forward to working with them. Later....

TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

i see what you mean about their heads. and better climbers too huh? for some reason, i wouldn't have thought that. goes to show........thanks again!

Well, that climbing thing is kinda up in the air. Regular corns are good climbers and Emory's don't climb much. But the Keys Rats seem built better for it. The Brazos Is. Rats seem less terrestrial too, one reason I'm interested. I still need to do a lot in this area, so don't quote me there. You're welcome.

PS: Different races or populations have different overall characteritics, some better than others. By combining the different races and breeding for the best traits we should be able to come up with a super designer corn...theorectically. I'm working on this too (very slowly). TC

>>i see what you mean about their heads. and better climbers too huh? for some reason, i wouldn't have thought that. goes to show........thanks again!