Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My pac is currently on a mice-only diet now, but I want to spice things up a bit. From my reptile supplier at work I can get small lizards for under a dollar each and I am considering ordering a couple. I don't have any doubt that he would eat them, but I was wondering if he would become "hooked" on lizards the way they do on other frogs and would have trouble eating anything else. Also since my guy likes to bury himself most the time, I figured if they were small anoles or something I could just keep them in the cage all the time. They wouldn't try and bite or hurt my frog I don't think...

I am also considering ordering some tomato hornworm catapillars online to feed since they are big. Anyone know of any reason not to feed these to my pac (EdK care to share your wisdom)? Only thing I can think of is the small horn on the back, but I cant see that causing much trouble.

Thanks!

Feeding too much mice can lead to blindness because of lipid buildup on the frogs cornea.Feeder lizards are also usually loaded with parasites and will transfer them to your frog if eaten.I recommend large crickets,grasshoppers,mealworms,waxworms,nightcrawlers,superworms,rosy reds,butterworms(if you can afford) and silkworms.The most important thing is variety do not feed worms as staples use crickets as staples only worm that could be used as a staple would be silkworms.I have been feeding my frog superworms and calcium dusted crickets along with 1 pinky mouse a month and some waxworms.

What kind of lizards is it that you're talking about? Some kind of Hemidactylus?
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CokeOfMan

To be honest I don't know, the order list is at work and I am at home and the name escapes me. I'll check on Sunday.

@ pacman101 - I know that some members of the board (such as snakeguy88) have been saying that mice can cause lipid build-up for a while now, but-and correct me if I am wrong- I thought that EdK had proven that mice are actually a decent meal for a pac. I think he says that variety is good though, and that is exactly the purpose of my topic.

I am going to get some feeding tongs so that I can start feeding nightcrawlers and I may order some silkworms as well. I don't know of any place to get grasshoppers, but I'll keep my eyes open. At my work I have had people come in with water dragons and such that had actual round holes in their sides from where a superworm had not been fully killed and had chewed it's way out. I know it sounds like I am lying but I am dead serious. Could that happen with a pac? I don't know but I don't want to risk it. I know that there was a whole thread on the superworm issue I just didn't want to be called a lier by people who hadn't seen the damage the worms *can* do.

Thanks for the replies guys, still wondering about the lizards and hornworms though.

First off not to offend but I find that story to be bullcrap even if you did witness it.Could easily have been hoaxed with anything sharp( have no idea why but people are sick)I just fed my pacman a superworm last night and watched him devour.As he got the superworm completely into his mouth I heard a loud crunch when he crushed it by pulling his eyes in.Now get out a superworm and drop your shoe on it.See if it lives and if it does then drop it in some water and if its still alive after that then I am going to quit feeding superworms.Also my bearded dragon has had some and nothing is wrong with him he chews his food with his RAZOR sharp teeth.
Ok now about lipid buildup.I have read loads of websites and books that say an all mice diet is not good.ALL MICE being key word.You need variety in a diet just as the animal would have in the wild.That just my opinion as always their are different ways of husbandry but I do suggest add variety.

The problem with rodents is the frequency at which they are fed. There are many anurans that have never been fed rodents that develop corneal lipidosis. (I'll post a pic here of one.) On a kcal basis most of the commonly available feeder insects contain as much or more fat than the rodents. The difference is that rodents contain more mass allowing for overfeeding more easily. Rodent only diets work and do not mean that the frog will get corneal lipidosis as long as the frequency at which food is offered is decreased.
With regards to the water dragons, I can easily see this happening if uneaten mealworms of any size/type get established in the substrate as the worms may chew on the animal as a source of protien/moisture.
The tobacco hornworms, personally I was surprised to see them offered as a food item as they typically sequester the toxic compounds in tomatoes, tobacco and other plants in the nightshade family. I have not reviewed the artificial diet but most caterpillar artificial diets need to contain some of the plants key chemical signatures to induce feeding (these are often the toxic substances the caterpillars store such as terpenes). For my opinion, I would not use them until I could find some literature on the diet that let me know that the toxic compounds were no longer present in the caterpillars.

Ed

If you are concerned about the parasites then humanely killing the lizard and freezing it for two weeks will eliminate that concern.
They will usually eat anything they can catch, restrain and swallow.

Ed

Ed
Is there any evidence that the tobacco hornworms are killing animals?
Or is there any evidence of toxic buildup in the tissue of animals that are fed?
I see these worms for sale everywhere lately. At shows, they seem to fly off the tables.
I was contemplating buying some for exactly the animals we discuss here. For my frogs.
Crickets are'nt enough any more, nor are silkworms.
Nightcrawlers are'nt cutting it. I dont want to keep feeding mice.
So I thought...WOW these worms look like a good meal.
I am feeding larger frogs. Frogs more than big enough to eat fuzzy mice.Does anyone know of any instances of these worm being toxic at all?

I have not heard of these killing any herps but as I mentioned I was surprised to see them for sale as I knew that the caterpillars can sequester the toxic alkaloids and excrete it. Most caterpillars need a trigger "taste", which is often an alkaloid to get it to feed. There is a minimal threshold that has to be attained before the caterpillars will feed. It is possible that there is very little in the commercial artificial diets thus rendering the caterpillars safe to use. I strongly suggest not using any you find in your garden.
As I said, I would check the artificial diet to see what was in it before I personally used it but if you know people that are having success using them and are comfortable with it then its probably okay.

Ed

Thanks for the info EdK, I am going to try ordering the worms I think, you can check them out at herpfood.com.

I checked out the name of the feeder lizards, Hemidactylus Frenatus: House Gecko. Do you think that my pac could become addicted to them the way they can get with other frogs? I am thinkning about doing a nightcrawler/hornworm/gecko/mouse diet. Thanks for any info

To tell the truth, no idea if they will become prey fixated on lizards.

Ed

I am going to order some this week as I was gonna put a "bug order" in anyway.
As I said, these things fly off the tables at the shows.
There has to be something to them.
I'm in New England, so there is no chance of me finding them in my garden now...frozen ones maybe...lol
I'll try a couple dozen...and then maybe more at another time.
Even if the catepillars do harbor toxins, by feeding infrequently toxin levels should not accumalate to dangerous levels in my frogs and other herps.
How about roaches? Has anyone fed roaches to their frogs?
I want to try roaches next as well...not just for my frogs, but for all my herps
Although I cannot get past the idea of roaches in my house!

Have you ever held a hissing roach? I have and let me tell you those things are armored like no ones business. Maybe you weren't talking about the large ones, but these guys are hard to kill and I would be worried about them slicing up the inside of my frog's mouth (they have sharp legs as well as a sharp shell on side).

Goliath Bird-Eating spiders (a.k.a. largest spider in the world) have broken their inch-long-fangs when trying to pierce the shell of the roach.

Maybe I am wrong but I would wait for more info before feeding, maybe make a roach topic?

I dont believe large Hissers are the only roaches out there.
They also come in other sizes, from nymph through adult.
I believe that I'd notice the armor and sharp appendages before I fed them to a frog.
And with that being the case, I have a lot of other herps that could easily make a meal out of any species of roach.So I'd just drop them into another cage.
Except the kind you have to have exterminated from houses.
Still cant get past the idea of roaches living in my house.

Any of the softer bodied roached are fine as a food source. Many people culture lobster roaches for example. I have a small colony of Green Banana Roaches (Panchlora nivea) (see http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Roaches/ for a picture) that I use as feeders.

Ed

The concern is not that the toxins will build up in the frog but the level of the toxins that have built up in the caterpillar...

Ed