Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This post is a continuation of a conversation bt. John F. and myself (see posts from yesterday).

I'm beginning to realize how important the topic of brumation is to the hobby, especially to owners of ratsnakes and other pet snakes. John, I'm like you in that n. Michigan is far enough north I can start brumation almost anytime. I used to be glad to see fall because I could put my Russian rats down for six months, and several other species for five months. But I'm not into that anymore. Now I'm thinking of how much I can shorten brumation to save wear and tear on my snakes, still keep them healthy, and maximize their breeding potential.

Yesterday, I happily fed all of my bimaculata and dione, northern-most ranging of my ratsnakes, looked at the calendar and happily said I didn't have to brumate them until, at least, mid-November. Although my walk-in closet where I brumate snakes is already near 60*F, I don't have to use it, yet. If I wait another month, the temp will be in the 50's in that closet. Also, the longer I wait to brumate, the shorter the snakes will be in there, and the closer to spring.

I like to think you can brumate snakes anywhere between the Fall Equinox and the Spring Equinox, but that's six months. With most snakes you want to shorten that brumation period as much as possible for several important reasons. I try to keep my snakes going for as long as possible, and some, as you mentioned already, like babies, don't have to brumate at all, or for only a few weeks. I've had snakes in the past that would easily stay active until Christmas, such as the Chinese red-headed ratsnake, and still have snakes this holds true for, such as the Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnake and the various corn snakes. If I put them down in December, they could still brumate for four months, which the moellendorffi usually did, and come back up in April when the climate was much warmer and more humid. If they go down in November, I can bring them up in March for a total of four months brumation. Of course, I can shorten the brumation even more by taking time of off either end depending on how much brumation time they need.

With northern forms like bimaculata and dione and some others, I feel they need a fairly long brumation, but not excessive, so as to reduce stress and save body weight, so they will be good breeders. To sum up, I don't brumate any of my snakes for more than four months anymore. If conditions are poor for brumating, you want to keep the brumation as short as possible, imho. I try to wait as long as I can to put them down, making sure they have nice cool temps, when northern snakes, warmer temps, if subtropical snakes, and then only keep them down for the necessary time and not longer. I generally brumate my adults two to four months, and babies are cooled at an intermediate temp for a few weeks or month, or so, depending on species and how they're behaving.

I didn't start out wanting to write a lengthy paper on brumation. It got away from me a little. But this is a topic I think we should open up and at a good time of year. Hope you don't mind going in this direction. BTW, I'm looking at another month, at least, of working with my snakes, and fattening them up for winter. I also do field herping and there are some field opportunities still, depending on where you live or how mobile you are. We just got back from a trip to Hawaii, which was really cool, and I'm sure folks are still seeing herps in the southern U. S.

Well, anyway, good luck on your herping adventures, whether at home, or in the field. And if things slow down too much, remember you can always spend time on the forums discussing topics like this one today.

PS: the pic is of my silver phase female Elaphe bimaculata with her eggs in 2002. Use the link to see all of my ratsnakes (almost)...

Ratsnake Haven's gallery

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

Hi Ter, et al,
There is a standard "rule-of-thumb" at zoos that states,"whatever the natural hibernation time of any given species is, one may shorten it by half the time and still get breeding results". So if you've a species that takes 6 months in the wild, you can do it in 3 months in captivity. I realize that species may differ in their specialized needs but this theory was tested by Laszlo back in the 70's and seemed to ring true for him.
Best...
Jim

Thanks, Jim. Through the years I seem to be coming to that conclusion too. Amazingly, some snakes in MI go into brumation in September, not to come back out until late May. Now that's a long one

TC

>>Hi Ter, et al,
>>There is a standard "rule-of-thumb" at zoos that states,"whatever the natural hibernation time of any given species is, one may shorten it by half the time and still get breeding results". So if you've a species that takes 6 months in the wild, you can do it in 3 months in captivity. I realize that species may differ in their specialized needs but this theory was tested by Laszlo back in the 70's and seemed to ring true for him.
>>Best...
>>Jim

The bulk of my snakes are built for long cold winters. In fact as you know the eastern and western fox snakes need a long cold brumation or they won't produce offspring at all. So in fact the four months I keep them down is shorter than the actual natural brumation period by a couple of months. The schrencki and the bullsnakes are probably similar to the foxes with respect to the climate they're adapted to. The mandarins could probably do with a shorter winter as can the lindheimeri. But they are thriving with this brumation. They come out with plenty of weight on and vigorous and hungry in the spring. The subocs and my grey-banded king stay warm and up all winter. When the longissima get older I'll brumate them for the full four months. Now for those with semi-tropical species obviously a long hard brumation isn't needed or desireable. But if you happen to have cold adapted species it sure gives you a break from the action. I definitely feel recharged in March.
Regards
John

John, you're right. I've worked with Eastern and Western fox snakes and Russian ratsnakes and they are used to very long winters, as are the Eastern milks I have. Wild caughts being difficult to acclimate, the captive raised ones can be adapted to the four month brumation, as you said. My Mandarins also do well with the four months as adults, or less. I'm not saying four months is bad, if they can be kept cool enough, but lots of herpers live in southern states and find it difficult to brumate snakes. I am mostly trying to say that brumation should take place in the winter months and 2 to 4 months is enough. If snakes are kept 60*F, or above, I don't think they should be brumated more than two months, not including 2 to 3 wks w/o food before brumation.

BTW, I've kept and bred longissima and they can stand long, cold winters. I don't think it'll be a problem brumating adults four months. I enjoy a few months not feeding snakes too, but there's always something to do...LOL. Thanks for the conversation.

TC

they do brumation down there. I guess even in Florida it must be in the 50's in January. If not then either artificial cooling is needed or you'd have to stick to warm climate species.
John

i live just north of miami.....the coolest it gets here is high 70's as a daytime high and mid to high 60's at nite with probably less than 10 days all year reaching under 60.....

im looking for suggestions too lol

keith
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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

Keith, you have one of the toughest areas in the USA to brumate snakes. All I can say is you'll probably need air-conditioning. Personally, I would look into a window type. My Herp Room in MI has two windows I can open to let in air, fans, humidifier, and most importantly, separate electric heat, so I can raise the room temp. We rarely worry about it being too hot. My biggest problem has been low humidity when the heat is on.

Terry

>>i live just north of miami.....the coolest it gets here is high 70's as a daytime high and mid to high 60's at nite with probably less than 10 days all year reaching under 60.....
>>
>>im looking for suggestions too lol
>>
>>keith
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>>I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

...has a great discussion on the subject. Without getting into long quotes, let me digest the highlights.
"We aim for a cool season in the 45-65 degree range for about 60-75 days, but its not a factor that must be critically monitored or controlled." "Our room regularly rises into the 70s and even into the mid-80s during occasional afternoons..." "As long as they don't persist for a more than a day or two...thats apparently sufficent."
She also makes good points about the importance of the pre-brumation feeding regimen and the significance of controlling the light.
Overall, I think its a great discussion of the main issues for NA Rats and Corns.

I should have thrown in due credit to Bill Love as well. That's what I get for not proofing my work. Sorry Bill.

That's what I'm talking about. Thanks, Mark. The 45-65* range for 60-75 days is perfect for corn snakes and it works for many of the Asian ratsnakes too, but of course they like it cooler year 'round too. Living in s. FL almost requires you to work with subtropical, humidity-loving snakes. I think for some snakes you'd have to have the air-conditioning to keep them happy.

PS: When I move to AZ in about four yrs. I might have to discontinue working with Mandarins. They like the humidity and can't have it over 80*F. much.

Terry

>>...has a great discussion on the subject. Without getting into long quotes, let me digest the highlights.
>>"We aim for a cool season in the 45-65 degree range for about 60-75 days, but its not a factor that must be critically monitored or controlled." "Our room regularly rises into the 70s and even into the mid-80s during occasional afternoons..." "As long as they don't persist for a more than a day or two...thats apparently sufficent."
>>She also makes good points about the importance of the pre-brumation feeding regimen and the significance of controlling the light.
>>Overall, I think its a great discussion of the main issues for NA Rats and Corns.

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

I've been trying to work through the humidity issue with the snakes I brought out here. I've had to keep a humidifier in the snake room to cover my BCIs, Climacophoras, Glades. Corns and House Snake. While trying techniques like moist hide boxes, they still spent a lot of time soaking and getting bad sheds. (The Corn Snakes and Rats weren't doing too bad but...) The humidifier, though, is too much for the Bairds and Sand Boas, so they moved into my room. I'm going to get a humidity sensor and try to find a happy medium - if possible. I'm probably stuck with the current arrangement but I like a challenge. As much as I like them, if had it to do over, I might have found homes for my Boas. there is just too broad a range of environmental needs for the group I kept.

Hope it works out for ya, Mark. I've been worrying a little about the humidity, since I have several humidity-loving snakes too. I know Green Valley gets cool enough to brumate. It's already in the 50's at night, 70's day. A couple friends say humidifiers can help and other tricks might help too, like the humid hide box, but still it might be a problem for some snakes. Where you live definitely influences the snakes you keep.

BTW, I keep most of my snakes in ten gallon tanks with large water jugs. It's helps keep the humidity in a little (Check my pics below in the "props and hides" strand). I also keep babies in gallon jars sometimes which definitely helps with the humidity. You can spray tepid water into the set-up I use and it evaporates in a day or two. Snakes love it

TC

The brumation temps are easy. If I just turn off the cage heaters in that room and close the vent, I'm sure it'll stay below 65 degrees - probably 55-60 most of the day during winter. I don't expect to put anyone down until around Christmas. Most of my snakes are juvies and subadults now and I'm probably not breeding anyone this year.

Hi Mark,

I've experimented quite a bit with humidity issues.

What I found was that using a room humidifier is not the best way to go. Let's say the humidifier raised room RH by 20%, the increase in the cages won't be 20% - it will be less. Quite a bit less in most cases. Air moisture just does not efficiently settle into invididual cages. What it does do is reduce the moisture loss in individual cages - it does not increase it directly.

Instead it's easier to individually humidify each cage. Have you ever seen those ultrasonic humidifiers made by Walgreens, Sunbeam, etc.? There are a few different versions and they can all be "piped" to run to multiple cages.

With one type you can simply fit a PVC coupling over the outlet port and then branch it into cages.

With another type you can pull the top off and see two holes in the base. Aquarium tubing (5/8" I believe) fits perfectly into these holes and can then be branched into several cages.

I've tried both and of the two the one accepting aquarium tubing seems more versatile.

The main problem with these humidifiers is that you really need to run reverse-osmosis or distilled water through them or they don't last long.

With some playing around I think you'll find you can keep most species in the same room again.
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Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

Well, here's my input into this new data outpouring, and something you all may find fishy, but it works.

Being in North Carolina, we get summer temps up to 100*F and winter temps that will drop to 30*F at times. However, the average is about 50*F during the day and 40* at night. Which makes hibernation of cooler snakes simple. I move everything to "cool" out to my shed, crank the AC as high as it will go to keep it from getting over 60*F and turn my parobolic heater to "low" to keep it from dropping under 45*F. Incubate for three, three and a half months with varying temps from 45*-60*, warm feed and breed!

Now here is the one thing that throughs stuff off...I don't cool my beauties. I keep overhead heating on them year round, and keep room temperatures at 75-80*F with the lamps probably pusing those up 5* difference. During the winter I photocycle, shortening the amount of time I have the lamps on according to the length of the actual day, feed irregularly now and then untill spring brings longer day cycles, feed heavy and everythings good to go.

Of course neither applies with my house snakes. They stay up year round, and breed anytime you put male with female. Which I've heard(mine are still young) is the same with Radiata. I'll have to experiment with my garters, but I'm sure I'll stick 'em with everything else cooler climate wise during the winter.

I also start sporadically feeding everything to be hibernated this time of year, and when take them off food at least 2 weeks prior to them going down for good. When I bring them up, I feed feed weekly untill the first shed and then put males and females together and FEED FEED FEED, particularly females. Males go onto a regular schedule after breedings, females stay on a 4 or 5 day feeding schedule untill close to laying with which they slow down, or stop feeding entirely...the rest is history.

Not totally down south, but thought that maybe someone might find my techniques intriging at best..lol

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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

Conrad, that sounds like a great technique. I might have to try that someday. The pic of the Kunisar Rat is really cool.

man that calico is a beautiful snake........(if you ever have a litter......)

brumation is a new thing for me.....never really got into the breeding of snakes as i have in the past year and a half, most of my collection is yearlings....(which i will also put to sleep, just in case some wanna have fun next year) But i have some adults....and plan on breeding them in the spring also.

I live in south florida.....and dont have ANY cool areas in my house.....The refrigerator idea looks to be my best bet....

Advise? should i cycle it?. ...or jus get it a steady temp and place them in....what temp would you guys suggest, 50 to 60??.....and for black rats....2 months? (man i feel like a newbie....been collecting since i was 5 ((27 years))but i've never had to brumate)

thanks in advance

keith
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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

>>man that calico is a beautiful snake........(if you ever have a litter......)
>>

Thanks. We had a litter of nine this summer. All are het. for albino and 50% are het for calico also, but I don't know which. I'll post here when we breed the calico fem.

>>I live in south florida.....and dont have ANY cool areas in my house.....The refrigerator idea looks to be my best bet....
>>
You don't have anyplace...garage, shed, or other, where it will get to 60*F, at least? I thought it cooled off at night. Of course, we're in the 50's for highs already here in MI.

>>Advise? should i cycle it?. ...or jus get it a steady temp and place them in....what temp would you guys suggest, 50 to 60??.....and for black rats....2 months? (man i feel like a newbie....been collecting since i was 5 ((27 years))but i've never had to brumate)
>>
>>thanks in advance
>>
>>keith

Keith, I cycle mine somewhat, about 10*F. per week. Black rats are one of those adapted to long winters. Two months at 60*F, cooler if brumating longer, seems logical. I'm not sure they will produce after such a short brumation though. Should be four months at 50*F. Good luck.

Terry

So, am I to understand that it is only necessary to brumate if you want to breed the snakes, or if they just plain refuse to eat during the winter months? See the thing is that I am brand new at this, and my girl's black rat has stopped eating. Nothing drastic, just a week and a half, but since I caught it wild, I figured maybe I would have to brumate, whereas I thought I could keep my corn alive and warm through the winter if I wanted. So, the question is: do I have to brumate even though I'm definitely not breeding?

I didn't mean to say "alive," but rather "awake" since hopefully the little guy/girl will live a good ten years or more. . . .