Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Photo update to post submitted on 10-16.

This is a pic taken tonight, immediately after shed. This is an '04 male from "normal" mex mex adults, this little guy was purchased at the Chicago NARBC show.

Has anyone seen this ground coloration in a mex mex? Give me your thoughts...

Mike

Pic #2...

Pic #3...

Pic #4...

Pic #5...

Pic #6...

that coloration used to be seen rather commonly in mex-mex back in the 80's and early 90's although I would say yours looks to be above average in attractiveness. I used to hatch out specimens with that coloration but they usually changed to a grayish color as they aged. Over time people selected for the light gray/bright orange coloration so the brown tones are seldom seen anymore.

Thanks Rich for the history and sharing your past experience. It will be interesting to see what happens with this little one as he matures. as I mentioned in another reply, I initially believed what I saw was a thayeri influence. Looking at the mother of this hatchling you would possibly see why I still feel a bit that way. I will post photos of the parents and you can tell me what you think. This breeder female looks a little too clean with exceptionally wide red saddles and no open nuchal... to be pure mexicana to me. However I have little experience and background information on mex mex so I appreciate all of your input tremendously.

Mike

Breeder female / mother...

Breeder male / father...

Both parents are unusually dark compared to what's mostly availible now days. They look full-blooded IMO.

If that's not the black phase mex-mex it's pretty close!SUPER COOL!

Thanks Jetzen, I like what you guys are telling me. These animals actually were owned and bred by Jim Sargent at Split Rock Reptiles, I met and talked with him at length at the NARBC conference and show in Chicago which is where he sold me that '04 male brown phase. Great guy, very personable and willing to stand there and shoot the breeze all day. The snakes he had there for sale were all just outstanding. What I saw of his work impressed me and after noticing the brown mex mex and talking about it's background, I just had to go back and buy it from him. I remembered seeing his breeder pair on his site and that female really caught my eye. Jim bought her from Gulf Coast Reptiles and he tells me he had to do some really fast talkin' just to get them to sell her. The father came from a breeder in Austin Texas. Jim sold this pair to a guy named Jasper Kost, Jim now has Ric Blair's black phase mex mex to work with. Everyone seems to like those, including me.

You know, the truth of the matter is... I originally bought a trio of mex mex yearlings this year just to play around with to complete my L.mexicana collection, get a feel for them and see if I would want to keep them around. Nearly bought a nice young black pair from Ric Blair's line before I bought the trio that I have. These things grew on me really quick. I tried to talk myself into selling them several times but just couldn't do it. Then..... that brown phase male came along and it looks like they are here to stay. Even with all these killer thayeri hangin' around here I can't let them go!

The pic is of 2 of my original trio that are looking pretty good, female is the split saddled one with pink centers.....

Great looking potosi's and best wishes for future projects

Both parents look to be pure mex-mex to me. I had not realized where the trend in captive breeding had gone over the years. Very refreshing to see snakes that look more like the founder stock. (not that I have any problem with the selectively bred snakes,they are all beautiful, I just think we lost a lot of the natural variation along the way)

Thanks again Rich, you give me more good news. See my reply to Jentzen's post above with the photo for background info on the adults.

I agree with your comments on where captive breeding has taken our animals. The selectively bred and incredibly gorgeous specimens are a joy to behold. They are spectacular and our hobby wouldn't be the same without these creations, I am in awe of what the fine breders in our country have done and I have a tremendous amount of respect for that. But..... I too have a very keen interest in the "wild" specimens, bare bones originals and in my opinion it just doesn't get any better than that. In fact, some of my favorite thayeri here are first, second and third generation from wild animals. The F1's are of special interest, what one might see in the wild and that really excites me! Not to mention the fact that their genetics are producing some spectacular offspring when combined with the products of many years of selective breeding for intense color and pattern. Really interesting stuff indeed.

with a very small amount of durango, anyway a fine animal.

Thanks for the nice comment...

My first impression of this little guy was thayeri influence, however it was a reputable breeder that produced this hatchling and he normally only deals with the very best he can get his hands on for his projects. Hard to say though what may be lurking in the shadows of it's parents, the breeders were purchased from entirely different sources out of Texas.

Thayer's could also be a possiblity,what else do you have in the L.m.ssp. complex? Farther down this thread is one of my normal mex-mex take a look and let me know what you think.

I work with thayeri, greeri, mex mex. I also have a trio of Pandale Dirt Road alterna, the male being a wild caught anumal. You should definitely add the greeri... I bred my trio of greeri this year, the big male being an F1 from wild and the girls are Appelgate normals, very interesting kingsnakes. A bit difficult to produce consistently I understand but I managed to produce a few nice babies.

Took a look at your super nice mex mex, what a wild nuchal pattern! Thanks for sharing the pic! It also has a nice number of split/open saddles... I have a nice '03 model with split saddles full length with pink centers, love that look.

Ya have a cool collection, I only have a 1.1 mex-mex,2.2 thayer's and Ihave a 1.1 greer's on order, may not happen tho we'll see. Looking forward to seeing more cool pics of your's and here's one more of mine.

Looks like a:

Corn x thayeri
or
Corn x mex-mex

Would like to see pics of the parents and also of the siblings to convince me otherwise.

Kerby...

gorgeous, Kinda reminds me of a durango pattern, i'd like to add that to my collection!

here's one of my normals, hope you don't mind

Don't mind at all... thanks for sharing. Indeed it is quite gorgeous!

Glad ya like her, now this is a 1.0

Nice... REEEEEEEALLY nice! I see you like the split saddled models too.

Looks very much as it has "thayeri" in there maybe, but I don't think it's a hybrid. I have some thayeri x mex-mex and some have the gray ground color and some have the tan color. Either way, it's pretty to me. Breed a pair like that to each other and if you get anything other than the expected look and no "leonis" animals, I'd say they are pure mex-mex. But I'm no expert that's for sure.
:Mark

The ground color to me reflects some thayeri blood in there somewhere. It would be extremely hard to tell but I have seen many mex-mex and never a true blooded one with a brown background. In my experience, I usually see them with dirty grays or silver bray or even black on some really extreme looking ones.

This is just my opinion based on hatchlings and adults I've seen.

Russ Bates

Thanks for the input Russ, I appreciate it very much. I have seen your thayeri posted here some time ago and they are exceptionally nice! Thayeri are truly where the majority of my interest lies.

>>Photo update to post submitted on 10-16.
>>
>>This is a pic taken tonight, immediately after shed. This is an '04 male from "normal" mex mex adults, this little guy was purchased at the Chicago NARBC show.
>>
>>Has anyone seen this ground coloration in a mex mex? Give me your thoughts...
>>
>>Mike
>>
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

color variation of a mex mex! Thats a nice looking snake for sure!! Keep us posted with some pics as he matures!!
Brian

-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Thanks Hotshot! He is a terrific looking little guy. I will definitely post new pics as he matures. It will be interesting to see how he develops by the yearling stage.