Reptile & Amphibian Forums

so are sellers just taking there chances by selling hatchling torts or is there a loop hole that keeps the feds from visiting them????
I see babies for sale on the classified pages all of the time with no disclaimers as you see at the expos.
are tortoises not part of the law???

>>are tortoises not part of the law???

oh yeah you bet...an old one infact...long before they even realize if those homopuskleimanniiandalotofmanyothertinymightyitzybitzyturtlesandtortoises were ever reach that 4 incher in their entire lifespan...but that "4incher" together with the ironic disclaimer; a sure fun anectdote to watch as it evolves...ahh...time to give Doctor Fife a push

Hi Chris and Eco,

Yes, I've noticed all these babies for sale too. Does it depend in which state you live?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in the state of CA you can legally buy a baby turtle only if you work in an educational institution. You have to show your school ID and specify which school you work for. That's how I bought Toto.

You are not necessarily a tortoise expert if you are a teacher, but you will get the help or knowledge necessary to assure the happy life of your pet if you choose to own one. You have to be fingerprinted/background checked by the police to work in a public school. I can attest of my colleagues' moral values concerning animals and the environment. You bet if one of them buys a tortoise, it would be very well taken care of. So far I am the only one in my community that owns one; I think it is because most of my colleagues know the commitment it entails.

I brought Toto to my classroom and made a presentation about tortoises. I heard some horror stories from the kids like:

"I had a tortoise but the dog ate it".
"I had one too but somebody stepped on it by accident and it died".
"My dad and I catch snakes and wild animals and bring them home but then they die".
"We had a tortoise. I fed her lettuce. But she died, her shell was all soft".

I individually clarified all the horrors so stuff like that doesn't happen again. When the children left the classroom they knew the basics for responsible tort owning and care, choosing a vet, the differences between wc y cb, etc.

I plan another presentation very soon. Feel free to let me know if there are any important messages you want me to pass on to the school community.

TT

The law usually isn't enforced (I believe it's a federal law, not state). You can easily buy hatchling torts in CA--I've bought 2 myself, from a large reptile store in the Bay Area. I've also had them shipped to me from out-of-state. No questions asked.

I applaud your efforts to educate kids about reptile husbandry, but I'm sorry to say that being a teacher doesn't necessarily mean being a more responsible keeper (I don't mean you, I'm talking generically here). I've seen teachers who were very concientious about their animals, but I've also seen some who weren't. I agree with you that the majority are good keepers, but not all--which gives you an excellent opportunity to educate adults, too!
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I also live in California and people told me I couldn't get a tiny tort but I ordered two online that were smaller than four inches and I had no problems getting them. I have also seen them smaller than four inches occationally around here. I don't know how they get away with selling them that small but they do.
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Becki

1 Husband
4 kids
2 Hermans
1 Dog
2 Finches
2 Betta
1 Cat

I forgot to say that I've seen hatchlings as small as 1" for sale at shows in CA. Sometimes there's a sign with the disclaimer about turtles under 4" only being for research/educational purposes, but I've never heard of a sale being held up because of it. Don't ask, don't tell!

You have to be fingerprinted/background checked to work with children in any capacity in CA, although that doesn't mean all that much, either. When I was operating a home daycare, I was shocked at the lack of oversight by the licensing agency, even on their initial inspection of my home--no checking to make sure poisons were locked up, for instance. I would never put a child into a daycare facility without checking into it very, very carefully. Don't ask me how this relates to the 4" rule, but I guess it does in a roundabout way--my point is, just because there's a rule doesn't mean you can't get around it. I'm actually amazed it was enforced in your case.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

it is different in every state i live in CA and there are two ways to sell torts and turts under 4". First the one which has already been talked about. You can buy the for educational purposes without any problems. The secound one which i have used is that its legal for hobbyists to sell their surplus. so lets say you keep two turtles and they have 8 babies, but you only have room for 4 you can then sell the remaining turtles as surplus. Another part of this law is that you can't be making a steady income off this and they may check this.

You can easily buy or sell turtles/torts under 4" in CA without meeting ANY criteria. All the large reptile stores I've been in do it, and same thing at shows. These are retail operations, not private breeders or enthusiasts. The law is there, it just isn't enforced at all, so it isn't given much credence. Check out the classifieds and see how many CA retailers are selling babies.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

>>I plan another presentation very soon. Feel free to let me know if there are any important messages you want me to pass on to the school community.
>>
>> TT

...the world needs more people like you
I didn't think you had left out this "horror" but make sure your next show to tell them kids about not dropping off those lil' dime store turtles in the local parks or ponds when they got bored with it (the one that came w/the plastic palm tree y'know what i'm talkin about). it was these little res/sammonella cocktails party kickstarted the whole 4" controversy years ago...

The 4" rule only applies to "turtles" and not tortoises. If you read the law, it is for aquatic turtles under 4". This was a law that was placed a long time ago because years ago people would feed their RES's raw chicken and kids would and could get salmonella. The chicken industry is alot bigger than reptile hobbyists, and they are the ones who had a lobby to place the blame on the turtles and not the raw chicken. You rarely if ever hear of a kid getting salmonella anymore becuase we now have commercial food pellets and such that don't carry salmonella. I am in So. Cal. and the local & state authorities will give pet stores down here problems for selling baby turtles, but not tortoises. We can buy and sell to each other because the law also states that the sales are restricted to:

-educational purposes
-export
-scientific purposes
-AND sales between turtle fanciers(us), but not the general public. (there is your loop hole)

Hope that helps a little......

Barry

I found the last comment regarding a loophole for "sales between turtle fanciers" intriguing, so I did a google search and found a couple FDA sites to confirm it.

This first site gives the general interpretation including the exemption for turtle fanciers.
http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpggenl/cpg170-100.html

This second site gives the actual law which contradicts the previous post that tortoises are excluded.
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1240.62

Here are a few parts I'll highlight:

(a) Definition. As used in this section the term "turtles" includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families Dermachelidae and Chelonidae).

(d) Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.
(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business.
(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled "For Export Only."
(4) Marine turtles excluded from this regulation under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section and eggs of such turtles.

That loophole is exception #2 and written as "not in connection with a business".

One thing I found interesting was that the term "business" was not clearly defined in this document. "Turtle fancier" is also not mentioned in the actual law, nor is it well defined in the more plain description. I'm not a lawyer, but believe our collective hobbist understanding is based on the current FDA's interpretation of this law to date. If the powers that be, government, took a more letter of the law approach, places like kingsnake classified, where unincorporated business entities make exchanges, could be classified as businesses and be in violation. That may be a long shot, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I took notice of this part!
"Fine of not more than $1,000 or imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both, for each violation"

jbly

The government, in general, has always considered 'turtles' as chelonians. This includes the USPS when they say you can't ship turtles.

As far as selling the little guys as part of a business...

My guess is that if you don't have a business tax number and you claim the monies earned on your taxes as monies earned through your hobby you are pretty much covered.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

so trying to over clarify your excellent replies, as long as I am only a hobbiest without any tax #s I should be exempt form the regulations?
and we should also tell all of those who think this is a state by state issue, that it is indeed a federal law!!!! and that it overides their state laws, Correct???
Thanks

What I posted was my interpretation (I know, not worth squat)

I seem to recall that CA has a law that turtles/tortoises under 4 inches cannot be sold but I haven't looked into it.

The Europeans love the US because of the freedoms we have.

Local law.

State law.

Federal law.

Think about how free we are.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

...it won't be long for their keepers, too... when there goes their 1st admendments...

amen!
(may god try to bless da turtles and da keepers in america)

i meant: (may god try to bless da TORTLES and da keepers in america)

...Dang Moderator...when are you gonna fix that edit button hey... ?

>>...Dang Moderator...when are you gonna fix that edit button hey... ?

...aren't you glad we are not tree choppers?...

Ever notice how the ignorant go about raving how "THEY" need to do something abot that???
any time you ask the Government to fix a problem for you, you give up freedom and as any of us who attended public school can attest, the government is very poor at doing what private industry should be doing.
If we would just spend more tax payers money and make more programs we could fix it all right??? I dont think so.
remember poor spelling is ignorance not stupidity if you find a mistake here, keep it between us.
by the way dont forget to vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...for who? since they're all the same (ignorance?)...