Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A 14(?)year old girl was bitten by a Coral Cobra in Homestead Florida today. She is the daughter of a Game and Fish officer who keeps several snakes in their home.

Al Cruz (of Venom one) said there was no anti-venom for this species. her condition was not known at the time of broadcast.

Footnote: The reporter said that the corl Cobra is a rare species found only in the Sahara desert of South Africa!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

If her symptoms are dire Al should most definately look into useing African poly to treat the bite. BGF's paper on Elapid venoms found that the make up of A.lubricus's toxins is very similar to African Naja. He put them on par with Naja mossimbica (spelling?)but of cource with signifigantly lower venom output.

I hope she recovers. It is very sad to hear this. I keep 7 Aspidelaps including 5 CCs and know from experince that this girl had to have been doing somthing extreamly carelesss to take a bite. Though the sp is very rowdy at times it takes alot for them to open their mouths, even when stressed to the max.

Thanks for shareing.

Later,
Jeremy

WHAT THE #$&% WAS A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL DOING WITH A CORAL COBRA! If daddy wants to keep hots, he's gotta keep his kids OUT of the room when he's not there! The fact that this guy was presumably (unless he was an illegal keeper) liscensed to keep hots is staggering...Now I don't know the circumstances of the bite, but a minor should definately NOT have access to a hot room without strict PARENTAL SUPERVISION! Plus, if you keep hots and have kids, you need to educate your kids on exactly how dangerous these animals can be...Obviously the owner of these snakes SHOULD NOT have been licensed...I guess since he works for FFW he was able to get a liscence rather easily. Blah, more bad press, another nail in the coffin of the venomous hobby.

Maybe you dont need to jump to conclusions. Did it ever occur that maybe this young lady liked hots like we all do? Since her father was licensed, she could have been helping him out. When I first started working with hots I was about the same age. I really dont think that she just wandered around not knowing what was in the cage and got bit. If it did happen that way than obviously he is to blame. I just dont see anything is wrong with her working with these animals if she does like them and age should not be a discrimination. Her maturity level and her knowledge is what counts.

Joe

You get into all sorts of "Endangering the Welfare of a Minor" legality issues here, which is why you typically can't keep a license until you're 18.

Regardless, of whether you're a skilled keeper at 14 or not, her name is not on the license, therefore she has no business whatsoever working with the snakes (if in fact she was, rather than it being a case of the snake getting out of its cage adn accidentally biting her---then her stepfather is in a heat of trouble).

MH

.

>>Regardless, of whether you're a skilled keeper at 14 or not, her name is not on the license, therefore she has no business whatsoever working with the snakes

372.91 "No person except the licensee or her or his authorized employee shall open any cage..."

"Authorized employee" is rather liberally interpreted as "authorized person" by F&G, otherwise it would be virtually impossible to get a permit in florida since you'd have to have a permit to get the experience required to get the permit. No age restiction is stated (it is for the permit holder, but not for the authorized employee).

While it's tempting to jump on the father because he's an F&G officer and I suspect many of them wouldn't approve of someone else letting thier 14 year old near a hot snake, I think we should have at least SOME information about what happened before slamming him.

Now they are saying it was a shieldnose that bit her. The girl is in stable condition. In the later broadcast they omitted the part about the man being an F&G officer.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

justified my post for me. Regardless of what age you started working with hots at, the point is that in a captive situation, MINORS SHOULD NOT BE WORKING WITH HOTS! There is too much at stake, i.e. having your kids taken away from you. The public in general does not like the idea of people keeping hots in the first place, placing your child in the line of fire so to speak is not the best way to win them over.

True, age is not an indicator of maturity. But at 18, a person is legally considered responsible for their own actions. At 14, they are not. Here in NM (and I'm sure other states), if a minor gets a DUI, their parents can be held accountable. Along with that, the person who supplied the alcohol can also be held accountable. Whether you agree with it or not, that's the way it is, and I'm sure allowing your children to work with venomous snakes in your home will similarly attract negative attention to the parent.

What really bothers me is that this affects all venomous keepers...which some people seem to forget. The public doesn't hear about responsible keepers, they always hear of the irresponsible ones illegally keeping hots, getting bitten and not having AV, etc. If parents letting their children handle venomous snakes in their homes didn't pose the threat of negative legislation, I'd say go for it, who am I to tell someone how to raise their child...however, when it potentially can alter my lifestyle and hobbies, then I'm going to be vocal about it.

They have tried SAVP polvalent for Aspidelaps envenomations without effectivness.
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Chad Bachman

Do you have any references for this? They'd be handy.

Fangs
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

I think I remember reading it somewhere. Sorry, can't remember where. If it does work, I have never seen that published anywhere either.
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Chad Bachman

...a few members of this forum blowing off Aspidelaps ssp as being considered basically nonlethal and therefore keeping them without the AV (since there is no AV for them) wasn't dangerous. Seems to me that there is enough concern about the condition of this person who was bit that maybe those people aren't giving enough credit to them. Of course this is a relatively young female person, but still, it seems kind of irresponsible to me to consider them non-dangerous. Psilocybe is right though, regardless of the experience level of this girl or what she was doing to be bitten, this is just one more nail in the proverbial coffin closing down on the venomous hobby. At the very least I suspect FL may be seeing even more restrictions pop up.
-Chance
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Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com

Even though Im out of town, I have checked the local papers online down there and havent seen a word about it. I also called a few buddies down there and there heard nothing which is also good. Hopefully it will all turn out for the best and she will be ok.

Joe

WPLG (Miami, Florida) 29 October 04 Rare Cobra Bites Teen; Anti-Venin Unavailable
Homestead, Fla: A Homestead teenager's future is uncertain today after a being bitten by a cobra that is so rare that no anti-venin is available.
An entire room in this house is dedicated to reptiles.
"I've called five of the top experts worldwide and even though the venom unit has dealt with over 750 snakebites, this is the first one possibly in existence in this country," said Miami-Dade firefighter Al Cruz, who runs the county's venom unit.
Investigators say the rare coral cobra bit the teen as she slept in her Homestead home. The 14-year-old's stepfather, Bill Stifler, is an employee of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission and also works professionally showing snakes. An entire room in their house is dedicated to reptiles. At this point, it's not known how the snake got out of the room to bite the sleeping teen.
The teen's prognosis is somewhat uncertain. Doctors at Miami Children's Hospital are monitoring her.
"You're dealing with a situation that time will tell what the resolution will be," Cruz said.
Coral cobras typically live in the southwestern regions of Africa. Very little is known about its venom, but the snake's bite is not thought to be as toxic as other cobras.

{Wes Admin Note:
1. Sorry about the tardiness of posting this, I've been moved forward into a staging location for a possible short-notice peacekeeping (peacemaking?) event and the one 1990-era I-net linked computer available is now shared by 150 guys in green. My postings may become erratic and less than timely ... I beg your indulgence.
2. A favour please - if anybody has a postal address for Mr Cruz's venom unit, could they please zap it to me? I promised him a copy of the Herp News archives and they're just about ready.
Thanks all, Wes}
Rare Cobra Bites Teen; Anti-Venin Unavailable

Ok...(I ask) How did the C. cobra get into (her bed?). I have one and if it's any indicator, they don't climb very well. The other thing that bothers me is they don't seem that aggressive. Mine hardly hoods if you hook him.

That the cobra sought her out, sounds more like a Hollywood fable than a legitmate story. I could see a Naja or some other true Cobra easily enough but this leaves me doubts.

I have some questions about the validity of the girl's story.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

to all the people foaming at the mouth at the father's "irresponsibility"...

when i was 14, there wasnt a single inch of my house that i hadnt made a point of exploring, particularly the parts that required lock-picking to get to.

if this snake really managed to get out of the cage and tag this little girl in her sleep then ignore this post, but im just saying; if my dad kept cobras, hell nor high water would have kept me from checking them out on my own, probably with the exact same results.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to all the people foaming at the mouth at the father's "irresponsibility"...

when i was 14, there wasnt a single inch of my house that i hadnt made a point of exploring, particularly the parts that required lock-picking to get to.

if this snake really managed to get out of the cage and tag this little girl in her sleep then ignore this post, but im just saying; if my dad kept cobras, hell nor high water would have kept me from checking them out on my own, probably with the exact same results.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have a friend who keeps many crotalids, and has 3 daughters under the age of 18 in his house, and a grandson who is less than 5. The three girls all have a VERY healthy respect for the animals, and there has never been a problem. The grandson, even at his young age, knows there will be hell to pay if he ever ventures into the hot room.

The primary responsiblity of a parent (even a step parent) is to protect the well-being of your family. If you have kids who are inclined to get themselves into trouble, you should do the best you can to keep trouble away from your kids. Venomous snakes and inquisitive kids can be a disasterous combination. If his daughter can't reason that playing with a hot is gonna get her in a coffin sooner or later, then daddy needs to do one of two things:

1. Get rid of the snakes
or
2. Get rid of the girl.

Obviously, one of those choices is more reasonable than the other...

The girl is a minor, the father is responsible for her actions, especially when they involve potentially dangerous things in his own house (i.e. venomous snakes!). If he is unable or incapable of building a healthy respect for the animals in her, then he needs to reconsider keeping them until she moves out.

Now, if the news story claiming that the snake bit her as she slept, as unlikely as that is, then the father is MOST DEFINITELY to blame. How the hell did the snake escape it's cage AND the hot room? The whole purpose of a hot room is in the event a snake does escape a cage, it's confined to the room.

I guess we'll have to wait to see what actually happened, but in any case, it appears many errors in judgement on both the fathers and the daughters part were made.

Bringing up children is one of the hardest tasks an adult can have. Children nowdays are quickly becoming independent and strong wild, which can make life hell for some parents. You cant just to forbid a child from doing something thats availablie within the house. Its a fine art of introducing them to your hobby and laying down the rules and regulations that you see fit BUT at the same time having your child involved. A child becomes more mischevious when you totaly ban them than when you allow them to take part under the above regulations. My son is 8yrs of age he comes into my "hot" room under my supervision during general maintanence ie feeding, fresh water. His inquisitive mind is being filled by this but also for an 8 yr he is aware of what pain these animals can do. I have sat down and shown him pictures of children as well as adults the affects of a snake bite which has given him even more respect towards them, whether or not he understands the full meaning of death, I dont think he does, but every question he has I sit down and explain to him the answer. I find accidents around the house involving children is usually because they have been banned from doing it in the first place ie guns, alcohol and "hots". Bare in mind we do not know the true story of what happened to this young girl.
regards
John

That is just a Major Cop out. Sorry if you cannot manage to make your children behave, then that is your problem.

My father worked with lots of things that were dangerous to children. He explained these interests and answered all questions,and then laid down the law. We grew up respecting Private possesions and that it was wrong to stick your nose where it didn't belong.

The problem is today's parents are too lazy to disipline their children. Accidents like this aptly illustrate it.

It doesn't take a village to raise a child. It takes a parent who cares enough to lay down rules and enforce them.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Unfortunately you cannot be with your children 24/7 and children will break rules, whether they are young and forgetful or when they are teenagers, full of hormonal imbalances making them gormlous, cocky and know best etc, more so in boys than girls. My son is bound to break the rules when he is older and find the key and enter my room, BUT I know that he would not unlock any of the enclosures. Anybody can make rules for children and discipline them when needed but its the trust that you must have with the child, and he/she must have RESPECT for the adult. Respect is the hardest thing to have, it requires patients, knowledge, amongst other things, but it is something you have to work for every day of your life, whether children or colleauges.

John

I agree, Frank. I've been watching this thread for a few days now without making any comments. That's because I know the comments I would make are likely to start a s&#t-storm.

But...here they are. My opinions on this matter....

1. Dangerously hot snakes and young children DO NOT belong in the same living space. I've seen a lot of folks with small kids in the house keeping some very dangerous critters. For instance, using a spare bedroom for a snake room with dangerously hot animals in aquariums with screen tops on shelves. To me, the only way this practice approaches acceptability is if each cage can be secured and "child-proofed" AND the room itself can be secured (locked with a key-lock). And then common sense measures such as rubber strips sealing the bottoms of the doors, screen over A/C vents, etc. must be taken to prevent a snake that escapes it's cage from escaping the room. A separate, secure building, or a locked basement room is a much better option.

2. No venomous snake should EVER be removed from it's cage when small children are present in the same room. If you want to let the kids come in and look at the snakes, fine. But, in my opinion, the cages should remain closed and locked when the kids are in the room.

3. Kids should be disciplined to a "hands-off" policy. Teaching them that the animals are dangerous is good, and should be done. But, it's not enough. Not when it comes to venomous snakes and not when it comes to guns, or lawnmowers or chainsaws or anything else that could be dangerous to them and other kids. Kids are naturally very curious creatures. But, they CAN be taught that no means no. It has to start early and it has to be forceful and consistent. Here's an example. Take a small child and place something he wants on a table in front of him. When he reaches for it, tell him "No!" and take it away from him and place it back on the table in front of him. He will continue to try to get it. Most people's reaction would then be to take the item and place it somewhere where the child can't see it and reach it. What message do you deliver when you do that? What you have just taught him is that anything that is within his reach is fair game. If, instead of placing it outside his reach, you bring his little world crashing down around his shoulders the second time he reached for it, you would teach him that no means no. Then you could place it on the table and he will leave it alone until you TELL him it's ok to get it. My kids understand that I don't repeat myself. If I tell them something I mean exactly that and there are no second chances. I don't reason with them or "explain" things to them and I don't give them reasons when I tell them to do or not do something. I'm not their "buddy", I'm their dad. I don't advocate abusing kids in any fashion, but I established early on that I am the boss and if they violate my rules or disobey me there is a heavy price to pay.

Now, as far as this particular incident goes, I don't think we have enough information to make an informed judgement. On the surface, it seems apparent that this guy did not do everything he could to keep his snakes and kids secure and separated. I don't know if the snake got out or if the kid got in. Either way there was a security breech.

Which snake bit the kid is immaterial for the purposes of this discussion. Certainly, had it been a more lethal species the incident would have been worse. However, ANY bite or escape points out that the security was lacking, and possibly discipline was lacking. I can't imagine a Coral Cobra escaping it's cage, finding it's way into the kid's room, climbing into bed with her, and then biting her. I'm not saying that's impossible and couldn't happen, it just sounds far-fetched to me.

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Np
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Homicide, you know something, it's a good way to "off" somebody. I would grill and question the father.

Look at the facts. Her father obviously knows plenty about venomous snakes. So he would know that anti-venom for this rare snake is slim. The reptile that "escapes" just so happens to be a rare cobra that many people have little information on. It just happens to "escape" while she's asleep lol. It all seems very shady if you ask me. I would be asking tons of questions.

you should lay off the CSI Miami, you're really searching here.

So let me ask you this, if that little girl dies (Or she may already be dead,god forbid, who knows) You don't think questions will be brought up? I don't watch CSI nor do I watch much T.V. All I know is that her father better have a real good explaination on how a rare cobra managed to escape from a professional venomous snake keeper. Then ending up in his daughter's bed. You'd be stupid to think that a police investigation would rule out attempted homicide. Your probably right, it could've been a mistake, but that dude is definately getting grilled by the police. It would be a perfect crime and I'm sure anyone would agree with me on that.

Why would he use a snake that is NOT THAT RARE (unless you ask the sensationalistic media), with a venom that doesn't have THAT many, if any documented deaths (species pending), when he could use a cobra or mamba that would kill much faster? There is no doubt that they have a fairly toxic venom, but fatalities are rare, unlike that of other species that would definitely kill you.
The fact that there is no AV doesn't mean squat, there hasn't been any need to spend the money to develope one.
I personally don't think homocide has entered anyone's minds.
Whether or not he will be charged with negligence, noone knows for sure, especially when noone knows exactly what happened.
I do find it hard to believe that she was bitten while sleeping.

True, and well said. I find it hard to believe too that she was bitten while asleep. Dude it's like having guns at home, people need to take precautions. Your right, incidents like this is destroying the hobby. Personally, I don't own and venomous snakes nor would I ever. I like to visit the forums and view owner pics of venomous snakes because I think they're one of the most beautiful creatures on the planet. That's a responsibilty I feel I wouldn't handle, and I would just be contributing to the destruction of the hobby for owners like yourself. I see these inexperienced idiots on here owning them because they're "cool", that's sickening. Although I'm looking into keeping rear fanged snakes like a Hognose (which I'm purchasing next week) or a FWC, but that's as far as I'll go.

yes, venomous snake keeping is a responsibility, but realizing that in the first place shows that you can be a responsible person. Whether or not you want to take up the responsibility is up to you. It isn't something you want to go into half@ssed, it's dangerous to you, the ones around you, and it's not fair to the snake. There can be many rear-fangs that are just as much of a responsibility as venomous.
I also agree about guns, to me, they are far more dangerous than any snake, however, responsibility plays an important role there too.
Good luck if you get some colubrids, and be careful with the ones you choose.

>>I also agree about guns, to me, they are far more dangerous than any snake,

I agree with everything you said up to this point. How in the world is a gun inherently more dangerous than a captive venomous snake? I have never in my life seen a gun that could, under it's own power, harm a human. It takes a human to pick the gun up, load it, then point it in the direction of another human and pull the trigger. A venomous snake has a brain. It can act of it's own volition. It can escape it's cage, find it's way to another room, another yard, even another house and then bite a human and kill them, all without the aid of a person. You can put your hand into a cage with a gun and if you don't touch it, it won't shoot you. Try that with a Mamba. The gun itself is not dangerous in the least. A person with a loaded gun certainly can be dangerous. However, it's not the gun that's dangerous, it's the person. That person could be just as dangerous with a knife, a baseball bat or a car. A Mamba is ALWAYS dangerous.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

where I said responsibility is the key. A mamba doesn't go looking for a victim, just like a gun doesn't load and shoot itself. A captive mamba wouldn't be dangerous if it was left in the wild where it may never see a human. If a wild snake saw a human and bit it, it was doing what it needed to do to protect itself, because it saw man as a danger. My point is, man makes guns and snakes dangerous UNLESS there is a level of responsibility that is reached for both.

>>where I said responsibility is the key. A mamba doesn't go looking for a victim, just like a gun doesn't load and shoot itself. A captive mamba wouldn't be dangerous if it was left in the wild where it may never see a human. If a wild snake saw a human and bit it, it was doing what it needed to do to protect itself, because it saw man as a danger. My point is, man makes guns and snakes dangerous UNLESS there is a level of responsibility that is reached for both.

I agree...when both are in the care of people, resposibility is definitely the key. And, if a captive snake were left in the wild, as you say, it wouldn't likely be a danger to humans. However, if it were left in the wild, it wouldn't be a captive snake.

I still say that if you have both, a gun and a captive venomous snake, the gun is not inherently dangerous....the snake is. If you put both in a cage and put your arm in the cage without touching either, the snake is much more likely to bite you than the gun is to shoot you. The gun cannot do anything of it's own volition. The snake can.

What it comes down to, as you said, is personal responsibilty. My point was that the gun is NOT more dangerous than the venomous snake. The person responsible for either may be a danger, but if all things are equal, the snake has more potential for being inherently dangerous than the gun does.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

.

that Aspidelaps are "not lethal therefore keeping them without AV is safe". Sure, if you keep them, since there is no AV, no one can slag you for not having AV available. However, that does not make them "not dangerous" (double negative, i know). Just because it's UNLIKELY to kill you doesn't mean it's "not dangerous". People keep Atheris sp. as well, without AV, and I've heard some people say the same thing about those...which is equally ludicrous.

Whoever was saying that needs to get there head checked. While it may not kill you (but has killed some), it's still a medical EMERGENCY if you are bitten. Not to mention the permanent organ damage that could result from a bite.

Hey, I could stick my hand down my garbage disposal and probably survive, doesn't make it safe

And Chance, I know it wasn't you who said that, so this post isn't directed at you...just clarifying.

I have long hated the lax attitude twoards genus like Aspidelaps and Atheris. Many people recomend members of both of these genus as good starter hots and quite frankly thats bull!! Even though both are very easy to handle and maintain in captivity (ok, maybe not all of the Atheris are)the simple fact that their is no known AV should tell you they are only for the upmost experinced! Pirticulary Atheris.

Atheris all have very close lineage to the genus Echis and in case people forgot, Echis are argubly the most deadly group of snakes on the planet!!

Aspidelaps can be argued alittle bit but still should be given the respect they deserve. Like Atheris and Echis, Aspidelaps and Naja are very close with toxins shareing similar make ups just like the before mentioned genus. Though their size makes them less formidiable then most a bite can go dire as has been proven in the past. The reason I mentioned it can be argued is because the primary killing factor if you will would have to be the neuros present in the venom. Typical envenomations reported from this sp list local swelling and bruseing as the main effects of a bite with perhaps alittle bit of numbness at the bite site. Even if respitory paralysis kicks in a repirator will usualy hold one over untill the effects where off. Atheris bites are quite different and more difficult to reverse if I understand correctly.

Guess to make it short and sweet I would rather have a respirator hooked up to me then a dialisis machine

I hope people wake up!!

All the best,
Jeremy

..
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Chad Bachman

Considering that Echis antivenoms have enough problems working against even other Echis, is pretty unlikely they'll have much of an effect against Atheris. Certainly worth a try of course but I wouldnt be holding my breath.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

it has never worked. Maybe it works better neutralising Atheris envenomations than it does Echis, it is possible.

How about we just say, "NO AV WORKS" unless BGF approves it first (I see lots of dead people if that is the case).
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Chad Bachman

>>it has never worked. Maybe it works better neutralising Atheris envenomations than it does Echis, it is possible.
>>
>>How about we just say, "NO AV WORKS" unless BGF approves it first (I see lots of dead people if that is the case).

I am not quite sure why the ad hominem attack is necessary.

While any viperid antivenom may be worth trying if you have a desperately ill patient in an ICU, in the hope that there may be at least some paraspecific neutralisation, that does not justify blanket statements about Echis av being effective for Atheris. Where is your evidence for that?

Atheris and Echis are NOT close relatives, so there is no a priori reason to believe that an Echis av will work for Atheris. None of the major reference books I have seen recommend Echis antivenom for Atheris bites, but all state that no antivenom is known to be effective.

Making blanket statements about an existing antivenom being effective without any real evidence is actually pretty irresponsible, particularly if it has the potential to mislead others as to the safety or otherwise of these snakes as captives, as here.

Cheers,

WW
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WW Home

From the Handbook of Clinical Toxicology of Animal Venoms and Poisons Page 488...."Atheris species: No specific antivenom is available, but there was good paraspecific neutraliztion of A. squamiger venom by SAIMR "Echis antivenom"".

Doesn't BGF consider the Atheris species to be very closely related to Echis???(Arboreal Echis).

From the Dangerous snakes of Afica...." Available antivenoms do not appear to neutralize Aspidelaps venom and their use is therefore contra-indicated. A fatal case was was quickly treated with intrvenous antivenom, but the patient experienced no relief.

Blanket statments.....HUH?
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Chad Bachman

Venomous rat snakes. What ever happened with that one guys. I still never heard of an envenomation from one....LOL LOL LOL!!
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Chad Bachman

>>From the Handbook of Clinical Toxicology of Animal Venoms and Poisons Page 488...."Atheris species: No specific antivenom is available, but there was good paraspecific neutraliztion of A. squamiger venom by SAIMR "Echis antivenom"".

OK, fair point, I was going by Dangerous Snakes of African and the Spawls et al. East Africa Guide, both of which state that there is no antivenom. Having said that, the chapter in HCTAVP does NOT provide a reference or state whether that statement is based on lab trials or clinical experience (the two are not the same!). So while Echis AV may be the first choice to try for a severe Atheris envenomation, I would not take that statement as a guarantee that SAIMR Echis will cover all Atheris effectively.

>>
>>Doesn't BGF consider the Atheris species to be very closely related to Echis???(Arboreal Echis).

The published data on viperid phylogeny give absolutely no indication whatsoever that Atheris has anythign to do with Echis.

>>
>>From the Dangerous snakes of Afica...." Available antivenoms do not appear to neutralize Aspidelaps venom and their use is therefore contra-indicated. A fatal case was was quickly treated with intrvenous antivenom, but the patient experienced no relief.
>>
>>
>>Blanket statments.....HUH?

If you provided references for your arguments instead of ad hominem attacks, as above, then we could have a constructive discussion about it rather than this puerile argument. Judging by your next follow-up, there's not too much chance of that, so let's just leave it at that.

Cheers,

WW
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WW Home

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Chad Bachman

For some strange reason I recall having read that their was some common liniage (other then them both being Vipers) between Atheris and Echis but after another quick check of my references I cant seem to find anything to back up my statment (besides the mention of AV potential) I guess I retract that statment. If anything my littiture shows a common bond between Atheris and Bitis.

Kind of interesting that the asumption of cross effectivness would have came up at all. I guess the known envenomations of Atheris showed to be similar enough to Echis? Regardless of the ancestory of these two genus I still hold on to my statment that Atheris are not for the unexperinced. Their venom is bad as has been shown by most of the reported bite cases.

On a personal note WW, do you know if David Williams has switched email addys? I tried to contact him regarding a personal matter several times and got emails sent back. The most recent attempt may have went through but I havent been able to acsess my personal email account so I have no idea if he has replied. If you could shoot me his correct email or atleast verify that it has not changed I would be most greatfull. My email is The_Taipan78@hotmail.com.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Regards,
Jeremy

This whole portion of this thread is a little surprising to me, coming from you. I wouldn't have expected you to make a statement like that without reference, then attack a Toxicologist that corrects your error. Are you just having a bad day or something?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

..
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Chad Bachman

Perceived error and ensuing discussion. I guess it was your reaction that really surprised me. I would have expected you to simply refer to your source to begin with, as you have now done, and then wait for Bryan to either come back with more recent data or some of his own work to refute it, or agree with it. No biggie, I guess..it was just a surprising reaction from you. It almost seems like you have an axe to grind with Bryan.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

No, axe to grind with anyone, but everybody here will take his side on anything he says (even if its wrong), and pretty much not give a damn about anything I say, because I'm a nobody. Facts are facts & nothing BGF can say or do to prove them wrong.

JMHO,
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Chad Bachman

>>No, axe to grind with anyone, but everybody here will take his side on anything he says (even if its wrong), and pretty much not give a damn about anything I say, because I'm a nobody. Facts are facts & nothing BGF can say or do to prove them wrong.
>>
>>JMHO,
>>-----
>>Chad Bachman
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I don't think anyone on here considers you a "nobody". I certainly don't. I don't consider anyone on this forum a "nobody". I don't think Bryan does either, or Wolfgang for that matter. Anyone can be wrong, like you said "Facts are facts".

There really shouldn't be any sides to take in here. It's not supposed to be a confrontation, but rather a collaboration.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>I don't think anyone on here considers you a "nobody". I certainly don't. I don't consider anyone on this forum a "nobody". I don't think Bryan does either, or Wolfgang for that matter. Anyone can be wrong, like you said "Facts are facts".
>>
>>There really shouldn't be any sides to take in here. It's not supposed to be a confrontation, but rather a collaboration.
>>-----
>>We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson
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WW Home

G'day Chad,

Been out in the field so haven't been around to read/reply. I'm just here to share information. If you have something more recent or if I've blown something, then just point it out. Its no biggee. I don't have an emotional attachement to any particular school of thought. I'm just curious about snakes and want to learn all I can about them. So, if you've got something to share, I'm always keen to hear it.

In regards to Athers, its genetic affinity is a bit murky still, including the exact relationship to Echis and of course the potential for antivenom cross-reactivity. I've worked on Atheris venom and it has lots of PLA2 (antiplatelet) and kallikrein toxins that chew up the blood. Both of those are typical viper toxins, including being found in Echis venoms. If Echis antivenom can indeed neutralise then, then that'd be brilliant. Which Echis antivenom, however, would be the key. As Echis antivenoms have a lousy cross-reactivity with each other, it'd be highly likely that if there was an appreciable cross-reactivity, then this would be from only one or two species/regional variants rather than all cross-reacting. In what you mentioned, which antivenom was it and exactly which venom was used? I'm currently looking at regional variants in Echis and it should be interesting to see what the differences are.

As for Aspidelaps, we looked at it as well and its venom is bog standard African elapid. Nothing special in the overal composition (mostly 3FTx, some neurotoxic, some cytotoxic, some with unknown actiivty) but PLA2 toxins also present (possibly presynaptic but could also be antiplatelet). This is no different from other African elapids as far as protein types present. This means it comes down to antigenic matches. Some of the effects would most likely be attenuated by the polyvalent but not necessarily all and perhaps a medically important type may be missed.

Cheers
Bryan

>>No, axe to grind with anyone, but everybody here will take his side on anything he says (even if its wrong), and pretty much not give a damn about anything I say, because I'm a nobody. Facts are facts & nothing BGF can say or do to prove them wrong.
>>
>>JMHO,
>>-----
>>Chad Bachman
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

A coral cobra is not a very dangerous snake...as you know, they are a pseudo cobra, with a fairly mild venom. The bite can be life threatening, but fatalities are very rare from this species...I am interested to see what comes of this all. If life support is given and the condition controled there isn't a lot more to do to help the bite. More than likely I would guess she ends up with some mild necrosis at most, but that depends on her size, and how much venom was injected.

Hopefully she will be alright, and her father punished! Arrogant, ignorant, unknowledged (unsafe) keepers hurt this hobby in an unimaginable way...they need to be delt with as an individual, as not to hurt responsible, prepared keepers.

-Steve Clark

keeping hots!

"A coral cobra is not a very dangerous snake...as you know, they are a pseudo cobra, with a fairly mild venom. The bite can be life threatening, but fatalities are very rare from this species".

Why don't you go ahead and re-read what you wrote. Hold on, let me clarify......" a coral cobra is not a very dangerous snake...it has a mild venom...the bite can be life-threatening".
At what point does that make ANY sense?
It's amazing to me how many people feel that ANY HOT SNAKE HAS MILD VENOM.
And we wonder why idiots keep venomoids, at this point maybe they should.

Define HOT SNAKE. Most snakes that produce venom do so in small to minute quantities. Keep in mind BGF just proved that most colubrids are venom producing. The question is more one of potentially toxic yield.

The more important question is: Willingness to use it and/or amount delivered... Shieldnose (Coral) Cobras are less inclined to use their venom for self defence which would make them less dangerous than say a Naja or a king Cobra. They also are not as mobile.

There is a big difference between Venomous and dangerous. Corals need to be treated with caution, but they are no where near as dangerous as their namesakes.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I'm not going to get into the whole it has a duvernoy's gland therefore, garter snake, hognose snake, are venomous yada yada yada garbage with you....he knows what I mean by hot, as do you.
The fact that people don't take certain venomous snakes seriously, like copperheads, coral cobras, eyelash vipers, because they have a "mild" venom, makes them dangerous.
It never amazes me how one can put mild, necrosis, amputation, and fatal in the same thought. Yet some do. Oh it has an ld50 of 40000 in lab mice, so it has a MILD venom. Oh these snakes are NEVER inclined to bite, so no they're NOT dangerous. It's that same reasoning that is getting "HOTS" banned everywhere, because you have some @sshole who doesn't respect the snake. Everyone is so freakin' worried about a snakes' ld50 and temperament instead of respecting them for what they are, animals that are capable of either maiming or killing you, therefore at some point making them DANGEROUS.

Relax...Heart attacks kill many more than snakes do.....

The point I was trying top make is that not every venomous snake is cause for panic. I keep Coral Cobras...I do not keep naja or any other kind of elapid-cbra, mamba etc.... Why? With a few sensible precautions I can keep my C.C. secure. And if by any (very) remote chance it gets out of it's cage...My hot room is totally escape proof (regularly inspected by the state as well). Also it is a lot easier to safely move that C.C. back into it's container. The small size and the risk of getting bit (with proper proceedures...Namely long enough hooks and tongs) is non existant.

I also keep eyelash's. Same story. It takes a big amount of carelessness to get bit by either.

On the other hand a 4'-6' type cobra or mamba is a real dangerous snake under the same circumstances. This is not a black and white issue. There is as I said...Venomous and dangerous. Two very different things.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

but it's the lack of respect that people have that makes these snakes dangerous.

sorry if I seem a little high strung. I just found out that hot keeping in NYS is pretty much gone as of Jan. 1st, so I'm a bit perturbed when I see people who are keeping snakes illegally and show very little concern or care when it comes to venomous snakes. You're not the one I'm referring to either, Frank.

TJP,

I hope when you say illegally keeping you are not referring to me either. I have been asked about the legal status of my animals, and all are 100% legal. There are no state, county, or local laws or ordinances stating anything other than that venomous animals may be kept.

Sorry to hear about what's going on as far as legalities in your area...there will always be permits for those who can get them. Here in PA legislation is pretty laid back for now, while there has been talk of that changing. There is a good chance only US native snakes will be allowed in PA within the next year (partly due to the rise of negative press from incompetent keepers getting envenomated). Not saying all who get tagged are incompetent, I just don't understand why keepers don't reduce their risks to the fullest extent when working with any animal.

-Steve Clark

Enjoy your snakes while they last because in a few years you'll be keeping corn snakes there buddy lol

>>Define HOT SNAKE.

Any elapid or viperid is a good start.

>Most snakes that produce venom do so in small to minute quantities. Keep in mind BGF just proved that most colubrids are venom producing. The question is more one of potentially toxic yield.
>>

Very true. However, efficiency of venom delivery must also be considered and this immediately bumps all elapids up.

>>The more important question is: Willingness to use it and/or amount delivered... Shieldnose (Coral) Cobras are less inclined to use their venom for self defence which would make them less dangerous than say a Naja or a king Cobra. They also are not as mobile.

These are factors secondary to the danger of the envenomation itself

>>
>>There is a big difference between Venomous and dangerous. Corals need to be treated with caution, but they are no where near as dangerous as their namesakes.
>>

While they certainly aren't as dangerous as a Naja, I'd still treat them as capable of a lethal envenomation. Many field guides and standard works tend to dismiss the
smaller elapids as of little concern. However, the complex nature of the venoms of these small snakes, and higher venom yields than anticipated, underscores the fundamental consideration that even lesser-known, small species may still be capable of clinically significant envenomings after exceptional bites in which a larger than usual quantity of venom is injected (they are after all, still elapids which means that if their venoms are even just generically toxic, then it is very toxic indeed). Lethal evenomations have already occurred with other small elapids thought to be harmless, such as the tragic death of Hans Schnurrenberger by a 30 cm Sinomicrurus macclellandi (formerly Calliophis macclellandi); the initial bite was ignored until neurotoxic symptoms showed up 6 h later, and death was 8 h after envenomation.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

When I say mild venom I am not trying to encourage anyone take a hit from one! The coral cobra doesn't have a large venom yeild, nor are they very aggressive. The venom packs a punch, but there have been very few fatalities associated with that individual species. Given, there are different species of "coral cobras", all with different venom compositions and effects.

BTW...A coral cobra is not a snake I would really expect to see many venomoids of! They are a smaller species that are pretty easy to work with, their temperment is fairly mild, and they are not too common in the trade. A venomoid coral cobra doesn't make much sense unless there are very special circumstances! That's just my oppinion though, I know many of you have other views.

Trust me, I'd rather not get tagged by any snake...nonvenomous bites are never fun, and even the more "mild" rear fang snakes like the hognose are no fun! I wasn't meaning for it to sound in my previous post like a coral cobra was a good animal to get envenomated by, I was just stating if life support is available, and her condition stabalized properly there is a very slim chance of a fatality.

I don't understand this news release...a bite to a sleeping individual would be a very rare case unless the girl like rolled over onto the snake! On a side note, coral cobras are beautiful snakes, too bad they will be made to look evil with the medias help...

Hope that helped clarify my post...

-Steve Clark