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More on Bush

Tony D Oct 29, 2004 11:51 AM

This from the Philosoraptor:

"I’ve long intended to write something semi-substantial about the election debacle of 2000, but never managed to write more than fragments. I’ve wanted to write about it in part because it was one of the political turning points of my own life, and in part because I think that, despite the massive amount of ink that has been spilled over it, too little has actually been said.

I’m certainly not the most qualified person to write about it, but I’m not the least qualified, either. From November 8th 2000 until December 18th, I basically did nothing but read newspapers, watch the news, and surf the ‘net for information on the recount. I slept a little, but not much, and teaching takes up about nine hours per week. So that left a lot of time for me to try to absorb information about what was going on. I've read Bush v. Gore and analyzed some of the arguments in some depth, and have continued to think about the relevant issues for almost four years now.

Let me start by saying that I was a lukewarm Gore supporter, and that I did work for the Charlottesville Democrats at a very low level—working the phone banks, mostly. But I was torn about my decision, and every night I drove down to Democratic headquarters I had the same heated argument with myself about whether I was making a mistake. If McCain had won the Republican nomination, there is a good—but not quite 50%—chance that I would have voted and worked for him.

After the election, however, my position began to change. After about a week of almost non-stop observation of the election deadlock, something extremely unpleasant slowly began to dawn on me. There was something very different about the ways the two sides were conducting themselves. By nature and by training, I’m the sort of person who second-, third-, and fourth-guesses most of his judgments. At first I surmised that it was simply my (relatively weak) pro-Gore bias manifesting itself. But the evidence mounted. And mounted. The Republicans were, to say the very least, playing hardball. The Democrats were, to say the very least, not.

Now, a few Democrats had made some terribly injudicious comments soon after the election, and the Gore campaign’s initial reactions were purely strategic rather than principled. But the Democrats--presumably under the direction of Gore--quickly fell into line and began acting, more or less, like civilized members of a liberal democracy. Not so the Republicans. Their rhetoric, initially perhaps somewhat less vituperative than that of the Democrats, quickly pegged the invective meter. Gore was a sore loser. Gore was a cheater. Gore was trying to steal the election… In the face of the patently obvious fact that we simply had no idea who had won the election, the Republicans labeled Gore a sore loser—which, of course, presupposed that he had lost. And because he asked that the votes actually be counted, they accused him of trying to steal what, for all we knew, was rightfully his. The irrationality and immorality of it all made me feel physically sick more than once. It was hard for me to believe that this was happening in the United States.

Gore urged his supporters to stay home, pointing out that the campaign was over, that it was time for us to come together as Americans and make a rational and dispassionate decision about who had won. Republicans urged their supporters to protest, and sent interns to Florida to disrupt the recount, along with an “electronic command post” to control the mayhem. Veiled threats were made. At least one official was assaulted. To this day I still can’t believe that Republicans printed those absurd and disrespectful “Sore Loserman” signs. The Republicans clearly considered the battle over the recount simply to be a political campaign conducted by other means.

The Democrats’ main argument was, in short: every vote should be counted. The Republicans’ main argument was, in short: give us the f*cking Presidency. Now.

I watched this develop with growing horror, frustration and anger.

Many of the essential elements of this repugnant spectacle were on display in microcosm when James Baker and Warren Christopher appeared—separately but on the same day—on Meet the Press.

Christopher’s arguments were modest and reasonable. As always, his tone was measured and dispassionate. He stuck to the facts. He looked and sounded like what he was—a man struggling with great and weighty issues. He was clearly a statesman, not a salesman.

Baker was a different story entirely. His tone was dogmatic and derisive; he oozed contempt for anyone with the temerity to deny the indubitability of Bush’s right to power. His arguments were weak, his methods sophistical. Over and over he asserted that the votes had already been counted—and recounted, and recounted again. Over and over he asserted that Gore would ask for recount after recount until he got the result he wanted. Over and over he asserted that any manual recount must be flawed, that such recounts were purely “subjective,” that they involved attempts to “divine” the intent of the voter.

But none of these assertions were true.

As had already become clear, all experts on punch-card machines acknowledged that a machine count was expected to have about a 2% error rate. Machine counts are approximations, to be relied upon only in those cases in which the margin of victory is relatively large. For more accurate counts required by smaller margins of victory, it was always intended that more accurate manual recounts would be used. The margin of victory in this race was too small to be accurately detected by the available machinery. That is to say that many of the votes—votes that would make a difference in such a close election—had never been counted at all. Gore was in no way requesting that the votes be recounted until he won; he was asking that they all be counted at least once.

The word ‘divine,’ of course, had been carefully chosen by the Bush campaign in preference to the more accurate ‘discern.’ The term was used repeatedly by Republican operatives, in conjunction with allusions to Johnny Carson’s old “Great Carnak” schtick, and along with pictures of a slightly cross-eyed vote-counter in Florida staring earnestly and intently at a punch card. We were being intentionally manipulated. A conclusion about a matter of vital national importance was being hawked like a can of Coke, with catch phrases, and with ridicule for those who weren’t buying.

But there was, in fact, no divination involved. The task in question was not notably more subjective than any of millions of other perceptual tasks performed by humans every day. Mechanics must determine whether aircraft parts exhibit excessive wear. Doctors must determine whether patients appear healthy, whether children are developing normally, whether this blotch on Smith’s skin is sufficiently or insufficiently symmetrical, whether or not a bump near a pin-prick counts as a welt. In laboratories scientists must determine whether solutions have turned opaque, whether needles read 0.002 or 0.003, whether a specimen is appropriate for inclusion in a control group. All of these tasks require some degree of human judgment, but none of them is reasonably described as entirely (or excessively) “subjective.” Human life—and even science itself—is in large part a matter of human beings making judgments about the objective though often partially-occluded facts about an objective and partially fuzzy world. If determining whether a chad is hanging or dented is subjective, then everything—including science—is subjective. Furthermore, if these things are subjective, then the decision to program the machines to one level of sensitivity rather than another is subjective. When the going gets tough, the crafty go Postmodern—and Baker might as well have been wearing a black beret and quoting Derrida.

Things do not change appreciably when it is human intentions that are to be discerned. Every day we make countless judgments about the intentions of others. Turn signals indicate intentions to turn, upraised hands indicate intentions to ask questions or make comments, certain well-known actions indicate a desire to catch one’s attention. Some behaviors indicate an intention to do harm. Judges, police officers, military personnel, statesmen, and ordinary citizens make life and death decisions every day as a result of judgments about the intentions of others. Although sometimes difficult it is something we are quite good at. Primarily because almost all of those Homo Sapiens who weren’t good at it died off long ago.

To help my students think in situations like this, I often urge them to use the “life-or-death test." In this case, it would go a little something like this:

Suppose that somehow the fate of the Earth depended on correctly ascertaining the outcome of the Florida vote in 2000. Suppose, just to get the point clear in your head, that aliens had decided to blow up the Earth if we got the recount wrong. And suppose you were in charge of determining how to handle the situation. On the one hand, you have the experts informing you that the machines have a 1-2% inaccuracy rate, and you know that the margin of victory in this case is far, far below that threshold. You also know that humans are eminently capable of performing the relevant perceptual and judgmental tasks, and capable of doing them better than machines. You know that the task will not be easy, and that there will be some borderline cases—dents so small that no one will be able to judge whether it is or is not a vote. But you also know that most cases will not be like that at all. In most cases it will be perfectly clear who the voter intended to vote for, and in the unclear cases humans will more reliably produce right answers than machines will. In short, you know what the voting machine experts told us back in 2000—that humans are more reliable tabulators of punch-card ballots than are machines.

Now, with the fate of the Earth riding on your decision, would you decide to stick with the machine counts or recount by hand?

That’s what I thought.

And if democracy really mattered to the members of Bush’s 2000 campaign, that’s what they would have decided, too.

Another way to settle cases like this is by looking at “prior commitments.” In the heat of the moment, people’s judgments about what is fair and unfair are too often mangled by their desires. Our judgments in a cool hour, when we have nothing directly at stake, are often much more reliable. And, of course, Bush himself had signed into law a bill in Texas that required manual recounts in such cases, indicating that he himself acknowledged their superiority. The Bush camp responded to this by arguing that the case was different in Florida because no standards were established in the Florida law. That’s wrong, however. All of the standards employed in Florida recounts were reasonable standards, and all would produce more accurate counts than the machines produced, so the fact that the methods differed was irrelevant. Using different reasonable standards of recounting is no more unfair than using different reasonable types of voting machines, so long as all the methods in question are at least as accurate as machine counts.

So, did the Bush camp steal the election? I don’t know, and probably neither do you. Is it theft to take something that may or may not already belong to you? Suppose there is a valuable book, bought and sold back and forth between your ancestors and mine over the course of generations. Suppose we lose track of who actually owns the book, but that we have a box containing all bills of sale for the book over the years. Some of the papers are cryptic and difficult to read, but most are perfectly legible. It is clear that our only hope for determining the actual ownership of the book is to carefully reconstruct the book’s sales history. It may be yours, it may be mine, but we won’t really know until we read through all the papers. But driven by raw greed, one day I simply decide to take the book, ownership be damned. Suppose we later discover that the actual history of the sales is incomplete, and ownership cannot be conclusively determined.

Did I steal the book?

I’m not sure. But I am sure that I would, under those circumstances, have shown myself to be a thief.

And I’m sure that you shouldn’t trust me around your books.

Bush and his cohort revealed something significant and horrifying about themselves during the recount debacle of 2000--they showed that they were willing to seize power even with insufficient evidence that they deserved it. Subsequent actual counting of the ballots—something deemed by the Bush camp to be too costly, time-consuming, and unimportant to undertake before appointing a president—showed that Gore probably won. If we’re lucky, it was too close to call. If we’re not lucky, then we allowed an unelected band of thugs to seize power in the world’s greatest democracy.

We don’t know whether the Bush camp stole the election, but what we do know is that they clearly exhibited a willingness to do so. They expended all their energies on seizing power, and almost no energy to determine who had actually won. In fact, they actively worked to prevent recounts that would have told us who did win. Such people, I believe, are unfit to lead this country.

Conservatives complain when liberals bring up these past electoral shenanigans, but they are relevant to more recent events. Many people were surprised by the contempt shown by the Bush administration for allies and Americans who failed to support the invasion of Iraq. Their surprise came as a surprise to me, because the actions of the Bush team in 2000 had already exhibited the relevant characteristics so clearly. In both cases they jumped to a conclusion that they preferred based on inadequate evidence. In both cases they even distorted and sought to suppress evidence that contradicted their preferred conclusion. In both cases they were astonishingly dogmatic about their preferred conclusion, and, in essence, accused anyone who disagreed with them of being an idiot or a criminal. Iraq was, logically speaking, just a replay of the recount debacle of 2000.

In a way the disaster that has been the Bush administration might—but probably won’t—ultimately be a good thing for this country. Without it, Americans might have allowed themselves to believe that the recount of 2000 turned out alright. Although the race was so close that either Bush or Gore might reasonably have been declared the winner, that is not the point. The point is that America allowed itself to be bullied and railroaded into accepting a leader. That would be appalling even if that leader had turned out to be a good one. Unfortunately, even now the lesson seems not to have been driven home in a sufficiently hard way for about 45% of the population. Of those people, one can only wonder what on Earth Bush would have to do to demonstrate his unfitness for office.

These reflections are also relevant because we stand on the verge of another election debacle. Both sides are lawyered up and itching for a fight. Whatever good will between the parties that managed to survive the 2000 recount has subsequently been squandered by the Bush administration’s policy of pushing it’s agenda by hook or by crook, loyal opposition and allies and world opinion and facts and evidence and the “reality-based community” be damned.

As you have by now ascertained—or divined, as the Bush camp might put it—I will not be voting for George W. Bush this time, either.

But this time there is no doubt in my mind that I am making the right decision."
The Philosraptor

Replies (18)

Thane Oct 29, 2004 12:47 PM

Tony D. (Philosoraptor),

Very cool name. Really enjoyed the write up too. Very good points and subject. I had to break out laughing in the last paragraph. I believe you're right, we're likely to see another election year idiot-fest like we did in 2000. It's hard for me to understand how it is SO #@#&$ hard to collect votes from people. It's a VERY simple concept, X, B or Z pick one. 3rd grade boys and girls could pull this big complex trick off. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying. We ARE working with millions of people to do this, but still, shouldn't this be a pretty simple and concrete, EASY method of data collection ? We ARE in the information age, but our intelligence hasn't evolved enough to be capable of collecting VOTES from a large population of voters ? Not sure if I should laugh, cry or just shake my head and go watch dirty movies
Thanes Place

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Thane

Tony D Oct 29, 2004 02:41 PM

First it wasn't my write up its from a blogspot. I am not the Philosoraptor. Sorry if I mislead but I thought the citation, link and quotes around the text would have given a hint.

But yes you are making this overly simple. Here are the points reduced to simple terms:

Point 1: Ballot counting machines, or any machine for that matter do not function correctly 100% of the time. In the case of the 2000 FL election the machine’s margin of error was potentially greater than the margin of victory.

Point 2: Manual recounts when the margin of victory falls below that of the machines accuracy it is standard operating procedure to go to a manual count. Bush even signed such laws into effect as governor of TX.

Point 3: The republican leadership resisted standard operating procedures.

Point 4: We don’t know if republicans stole the election or not as Bush could well have won it fair and square but we do know that the party (my party by the way)displayed an willingness to steal it by seeking every opportunity to undermine the democratic process.

Point 5: This is not something that very many of us ever thought we’d see in the contest for the leader of the free world.

Point 6: If this doesn’t give one the slightest pause as to the character of this president, his administration and its fitness to lead a free nation then why would it come as any surprise that some might find certain ballot configurations confusing? Both are in your face issues.

Thane Oct 29, 2004 03:47 PM

First it wasn't my write up its from a blogspot. I am not the Philosoraptor. Sorry if I mislead but I thought the citation, link and quotes around the text would have given a hint.

(T)Was a long read, I just got sidetracked.

But yes you are making this overly simple. Here are the points reduced to simple terms:

Point 1: Ballot counting machines, or any machine for that matter do not function correctly 100% of the time. In the case of the 2000 FL election the machine’s margin of error was potentially greater than the margin of victory.

(T)It's just my thinking that a machine, or OTHER data collection device, or method, could be better designed to minimize this. With security kept in mind of course.

Point 2: Manual recounts when the margin of victory falls below that of the machines accuracy it is standard operating procedure to go to a manual count. Bush even signed such laws into effect as governor of TX.

Point 3: The republican leadership resisted standard operating procedures.

Point 4: We don’t know if republicans stole the election or not as Bush could well have won it fair and square but we do know that the party (my party by the way)displayed an willingness to steal it by seeking every opportunity to undermine the democratic process.

Point 5: This is not something that very many of us ever thought we’d see in the contest for the leader of the free world.

(T)Very true.

Point 6: If this doesn’t give one the slightest pause as to the character of this president, his administration and its fitness to lead a free nation then why would it come as any surprise that some might find certain ballot configurations confusing ? Both are in your face issues.

(T)Y'see, that's the problem with bureaucracies and politicians. If they can confuse the average person with circular logic and ridiculously confusing procedures and language, they've done what they know how to do (Kerry-Edwards both having previous law experience makes them PERFECT for this). I work in a state run facility, so I see it every day. Forms to fill out, a "Well, we don't want to do anything to fast. I'll have to check with my boss and she'll ask her bosses assistant and MAYBE we'll be able to remedy that ASAP." Maybe you'll get a solution, maybe you won't. Where I work, they won't even let you provide your own computer equipment. THEY say, it's to discourage certain things. The truth IS, if we provided SOME of our own equipment, they wouldn't be able to make a case in the yearly budget to direct (read that steal) X number of tax dollars towards these "labor saving devices". They're wasteful and inefficient in nearly EVERY case. Where I work, not only is it a state run facility, it's also behind a union. Wasteful and inefficient times 4. I like to see fast, efficient results myself. Not something I EVER see at work. I go home to see THAT.
Thanes Place

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Thane

inchoate Oct 29, 2004 03:05 PM

How apropos.
The further corollary was that this man ran as a "uniter not a divider" but immediately pursued the most radical shift in direction for the country since the New Deal. Our leaders are supposed to have an electoral mandate, even if he, or his advisors, believe in everything they do they are supposed to act according to that mandate, not according to dogmatic whim.

undfun Oct 29, 2004 10:20 PM

43 Days ago a witness related this comment by Karl Rove: "It’s going to be a very ugly 47 days ahead". He was referring to the close polls, and the nature of the campaign they were going to have to run against Kerry. Their intention was to try to make good on that "uniter" claim during the last month or so of the campaign, but the polls were too close to risk it. He knew they had to whip their base instead. That means red meat, fundamentalist’s issues. Along with the morons on talk radio, Bush has managed to get his base motivated - at least as far as the polls are concerned.

But will this translate into voter turn out? We know the greedy white men will be there, as will the paranoid right wing nuts. The christian wackos didn't turn out as strong as they thought they would last time. And even though they have tried to get them all hot and sweaty with the gay issue, I wonder if most don't see through that nonsense. Can any rational human really think allowing equal protection under the law to gays is going to do any real damage to this country? I think you'd have to be at least semi-delusional and paranoid to actually believe that. It just doesn’t make sense.

Is the gun issue really a motivating force? I mean, who actually believes Kerry is going to take away their hunting rifles and legally registered handguns? There's just no net political gain for him to do that. Might he restrict access to assault weapons? Probably, but how many really care enough about assault rifles to put down their Bush Lites long enough to go out and vote?

Stem cell research? I have to think that even the most ardent fundamentalist fanatic must understand there is something seriously wrong with making tax payer support of cutting edge medical research illegal. The arguments against it (someone gave a list of them below) are almost laughable. The notion that a clump of undifferentiated cells - cells that will be either frozen or thrown away, cells that are a by-product of fertility clinics, are somehow "fetuses" that are human is just comical. These clumps of cells are created and destroyed daily in fertility clinics. So I can't see people getting out to vote on the basis of this nonsense.

Iraq and Terror. Even if you get your news from Faux News and Limbaugh you have to be asking just why the hell we decided to invade Iraq rather than fight a real global war on terror. And when you see how poorly planned and supported the war was you have to question the competence of this administration. As I said below, if a CEO runs a company as bad as Bush is running this war s/he won't be around long. So pretending that we will somehow benefit from 4 more years of incompetence isn't a very strong argument. I think a lot of people who may have voted for Bush after 9/11 will either stay home or vote for the Democrat this time.

OBL. Bush was starting to imply in his speeches that maybe Bin Laden was dead, or holed up in some dark, dank cave somewhere. But there he is today - apparently warm and healthy, and mocking the president. Will this be a net plus for Bush? Likely. Why would someone like OBL release a tape that would help Bush on the eve of the election? Look at what Bush has done to OBL's organization - wouldn't you want to support the man that’s done so much to build your ranks, power and influence? I would too.

In sum. I can't help but believe republican voter turn out will be disappointing. Sure, they say they'll vote when polled, but I'll bet many really won't. And I'll bet a lot of people who say they'll vote for Bush when polled will actually vote for Kerry when in the privacy of the voting booth. Why? Because many are guys with friends who they think are big Bush fans so they are afraid to admit they don't plan to support him. And many are women whose husbands are strong Bush supporters so they publicly support Bush, but who may well vote against him when they can privately do so.

The Democrats have registered many more new voters than the Republicans. And many young, college students for example, have never voted before so do not make the "likely voter" lists. There will be a much bigger turnout from minorities, college kids, etc than previously. And since many young use cell phones with essentially "unlisted" numbers their opinions don't show up in the polls. The fact that the next president will probably appoint 3 Supreme Court judges has also motivated single women - one of the most under-represented groups in the election. They know Roe v. Wade will be overturned under Bush's second term. None of this can help Bush.

So what I'm trying to say is that, even with the republican efforts to disrupt elections in Florida and Ohio, Kerry will win this thing - and in a surprising fashion.

What will happen to Bush? I suppose he'll start a few more big businesses and run them into the ground like before. The Saudi's won't be so quick to bail him out this time. He'll do the lecture circuit until everyone realizes he's really not at all interesting. Do a Saturday Night Live that will get the lowest ratings in that shows history, become a guest commentator on Faux TV for 3 weeks when everyone realizes he can't compose a single coherent sentence. Probably eventually get caught trying to buy crack from a cheap whore while on a binge in Dallas and eventually come to manage a string of used car dealerships across east Texas.

Our grandkids will scarcely believe a man such as this ever led our country.

Tony D Oct 30, 2004 11:28 AM

Hey don't hold anything back. Tell us how you really feel! LOL

Anyway I'd like to through out another possibility if Kerry wins. The war in Iraq will become even uglier, people will forget that the neocons started it and they will slingshot off of Kerry's inability to turn a pile of Bush made chicken do into a pile of gold and rest even more power in 2008. If Kerry gets in he better make darn sure that he runs a transparent administration and keeps an open diologue with the people allways reminding people about how this thing started

jasonmattes Oct 31, 2004 04:59 AM

Its been 4yrs...let it go!!

Tony D Nov 01, 2004 07:45 AM

n/m

jasonmattes Nov 01, 2004 08:23 AM

what?????

I'm not saying the guy is great or anything....they are both idiots...but geeze the democrats have been complaining for 4yrs....somtimes you just need to move on

Tony D Nov 01, 2004 01:08 PM

All things being relative, even after running the show for the last 4 years, conservatives are still whining about Clinton so I don't see your point.

rodmalm Nov 01, 2004 04:09 PM

The conservatives are only whining about Clinton, to show the democrats their hypocrisy when they whine about Bush. If you whine about Bush, it is perfectly fair to point out that you didn't whine about similar actions that Clinton did. It's the double standard that is so infuriating to many of us.

Rodney

rearfang Nov 01, 2004 04:27 PM

Depends really on the perspective you view from. The Republicans are crying about Clinton to divert attention from what has happened under Bush in the last four years which is what THIS ELECTION is about.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Tony D Nov 02, 2004 10:12 AM

That is complete B ESS! Give me one example of where dems are whining about something Bush is doing that Clinton also did. And don't even go to the spun "fact" they both supported regein change in Iraq as the two men's approachs are so different as not to be considered the policy.

rearfang Nov 02, 2004 11:57 AM

Who is B ESS? Good looking girl? (lol) Lighten up Tony, this election is almost over....

As to your question: Why would the Democrats object to anything Clinton did?

I don't waste time on spin...However I did some laundry this morning and there was a spin cycle!

The issue this election is (as I said above) the last four years. Did Bush do well enough to be re-elected, or bad enough for the people to vote in Kerry.

That is the only issue that really matters.

Unlike this conversation....which changes nothing!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

rodmalm Nov 03, 2004 01:29 AM

Well, if you are going to tie my hands so I can't use the prime example, how about embryonic stem cell research?

Bush is the first pres. to allow federal funding for it, Clinton didn't.

Did you ever hear any Dems. whining about Clinton not funding it? I didn't.

Did you hear any whining and misrepresentation about Bush not funding it, when he is?

--------------------
OR how about the job rates? Unemployment is lower now than the average that it was when Clinton was in office, yet the dems. call this a jobless recovery?

Did you hear them whining about the unemployment rate that was higher when Clinton was in office? I didn't.

Do you year them whining now, when it is lower?

My ears are still ringing from all the noise!

Rodney

Tony D Nov 03, 2004 02:01 PM

Well if you think I tied your hands use the example but please explain exactly how the two men’s approach to regime change is the same.

As for your stem cell example a quick 2-minute google search shot it down. Clinton’s method of funding the work is outlined at:

http://www.bioethics.gov/reports/stemcell/appendix_d.html

All that Bush did was place further limits on the guidelines. He wasn’t the first to provide funding simply placed further restricted on existing policy. Great example of the spin machine's work. I couldn’t have picked a better example or one easier to refute.

I did a little research on the unemployment figures and wasn’t able to “quickly” come up with anything to refute your claim however at:

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat1.pdf

you’ll find a chart that lists unemployment statistics from 1940 to 2003. Interestingly, the chart shows exactly what you claim. What it also shows is a clear and decisive downturn in unemployment averaging at least .5% every year after Clinton took office. Equally clear is a reversal of fortunes after W took office. The statistic you point, though technically true, is an out right misrepresentation of reality which further lacks relevance to the discussion. The point is that when you say something you know to be technically true but use it to mislead you are perpetuating a lie.

To put an even finer point on this it took me maybe 5-minutes to learn, on my own, that what you parroted off was complete hooey. It was so easy that it leads me to wonder why people swallow this propaganda hook line and sinker. Could it be a simple lack of intellectual curiosity?

rodmalm Nov 03, 2004 03:52 PM

Point 1) You showed guidelines the Clinton administration proposed for people to apply for funding, nothing showed any evidence that funding was being given out, or taking place, and I am aware of none. Funding requests could have been refused, or no one could have applied (though I highly doubt this possibility)

Point 2) Clinton gave Bush a terrible economy. The stock market had been going down for 9 months, people were loosing jobs, their retirement funds, etc. Then, 9 months later, 9/11 hit, and that devastated our economy, the airlines/travel/tourism businesses, etc.

Since then, and Bush tax cut (for all federal taxpayers) things have shown a sharp turn around. 11 months of job growth, GNP growth, etc.

I agree the deficit is bad, but economists agree that a Kerry's tax and spend plan would not only hurt the economy by raising taxes, but it would also hurt the economy because all his plans would cause the deficit to rise even faster than Bush's excessive spending. Why go for something worse, because what you have now is bad? If you can't find something better, it's better to stick with what you have.

Rodney

Tony D Nov 03, 2004 06:12 PM

Well then Clinton inherited a terrible economy from Bush Sr. but you don’t have a problem holding that over Clinton. For God’s sake look at the data before you say such stupid things!

As for the funding issue did Bush provide any actual dedicated funds for stem cell research? No, just guidelines. If I’m wrong provide the link for a non-partisan government source or just face it that you hold Clinton accountable to a different standard than you do Bush and you are willing to believe lies and use incomplete logic to support your position.

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