Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A couple of years ago the Indy show went through a similar raid. The show survived and is stronger than ever.

Many of the vendors that were targeted at the Columbus show were close friends with the undercover agents. The vendors targeted set up at more shows than Columbus (Indy, NOAH, Taylor & KY - plus others) I just think that Columbus was the place they decided to do the 'bust'.

From what we can tell most of the major violations weren't for things that happened within the show, but privately between a select group of vendors (including the undercover agents).
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Quality Captives

I agree, I was in Indy when the show was busted and I must say I like the show better now than befor. I think Don Hamper can keep this show going, but it will take a toll for a few months. I remember for probably 6 months after the raid in Indy there still were not as many vendors or people through the door. So Columbus may have a similar fate, but with some hard work, he can keep it going. I stand behind the DNR officers 100% when they are doing their job. But in the case of the Indy raid, MANY mistakes were made, so hopefully they did more research this time and got the people who deserve to be punished.
Just my 2 cents.
Jason

I think Columbus has been coasting along for some time. The people who ran the show wouldn't listen to the vendors or the people attending the show & work with them to make it a better show. We know many vendors who refuse to set up at Columbus because of the 'questionable' transactions occuring at the show & parking lot. (Which was a major reason we stopped doing the show).

I'm glad others see this. Here locally in Indy, it has always been the "vibe" that Columbus was such a better show. In my opinion, Columbus had more big name vendors, but Indy has a much better operator and I think the show is much smoother. I haven't been to Columbus in over a year due to this. Just my thoughts.

Jason

We live in Columbus & given the choice of setting up in Columbus as a vendor or driving 3 hours to Indy to set up at Brian's show we drive the 3 hours. We will attend the Columbus show, but not as vendors.

Brian has done a great job & listens to his vendors & customers. Personally, Indy is the better show for both vendors and attendees and other vendors & customers share this view.

Haven't you done your homework on the Columbus raid yet?? The Dept. of F & W, and local authorities have blown this up BIG!! Indy, Michigan, PA, & OH we're all under the "raid" so to speak. Hundreds of animals confiscated (mis-identified) by the "expert" on hand. Many animals were taken from people's home's that had ALL THE PROPER PERMITS, etc...this is just the tip of the iceberg, it is spreading NATIONWIDE trust me. It's not looking good for any Reptile shows over the year or two, I don't care if you're selling Slider's or Piebald's. Mike & Don organize the Columbus Show, and they run it extremely well. This was not about "parking lot" transactions. This was the beginning of the end if we don't make our voice heard as a community. Soon, many Albino Blackrats, Whitesided Rats, Texas Salamander's, along with many other CBB animals either wrongly or properly identified, will be destroyed or let go in the wild. C'mon, this is sad, sad, sad. To top it all off, the herp community is divided as a whole, some are under the impression this was because "bad guys" got busted breaking the law, well guess what...it's much, much greater than that. Research the herp law forums across the net, it's freaking scary!! In short, we've got laws written from ignorance, we have "experts" that couldn't properly identify anything but a CARP or Catfish!! Taking captive bred and born animals (morphs no less -Albino's, etc...) as evidence. This is NOT about poaching, don't believe the hype!! It's pure BS and it will not stop in Ohio, Mich, and PA. Everybody is next and most have already been affected somehow, someway. Do you realize that evry out of state vendor will have to have every single one of there animals "vet certified" with a certificate (yes, every one) just to sell them in Ohio & PA???? My guess is more than half of the Vet's today are far, far less than experts in the field of herpetology. There is MUCH more info that this short story, please do all of the research that you can, search all the law forums from the US and look at the BIG picture. It's not good people, not good. In closing I'd like to say that Brian, and Mike & Don get two thumbs up from me!!!! Their all 3 GREAT PEOPLE!!! It's our Gov't that gets my middle finger!!!!!!

I couldn't agree with you more!

I'd understand if they were confiscating wild caught animals. But color morphs of black rat snakes? This reflects the complete stupidity of the ODNR. Instead of going after the real "bad guys" (collectors), they are going after breeders - because that is all they can get. It is pathetic and a waste of taxpayers' money. Meanwhile animals are still being collected out of the wild in Ohio and shipped out of state.

No other state which protects its native wildlife includes color morphs not commonly found in nature - only Ohio. Albinos (and other morphs) are exempt from regulation IN ALL OTHER STATES.

And contrary to news reports, this was no "ring." Just because many people meet at a swap meet does not mean that they are all in business with each other - it is just a meeting place.

I fully expect lawsuits to be filed by the individuals who where unjustly harassed/fined. I also expect legal action to be taken to remove the idiotic aspects of the ODNR ruling (pit tagging, color morphs not being exempt, etc.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about conservation, but most of it can be accomplished by having a simple "bag limit" of the number of animals a person can possess.

Because of the ODNR's moronic and egotistical stance, they have alienated legitimate breeders who would be more than happy to give them tips on who is selling wild caught animals.

Worst of all, by "busting" breeders, they are not aiding in the conservation of Ohio's reptiles and amphibians in the least bit.

I do applaud the fact that the ODNR's ruling has ended the sale of box and Blanding's turtles at the All Ohio Show. It was sad to see these animals treated like potatoes from vendors who just wanted to make a buck. The same could be said for the wild caught black rat snakes and ringneck snakes stacked three layers deep in aquariums.

But this "raid" had nothing to do with that.

Tim Spuckler

You touched on a few not so well known facts about some of Ohio's guidelines, and I agree w/ you 100% about the Box Turtles, etc...let's hope you're right about getting some of these things changed, so we the true hobbiest/breeders can continue to enjoy the animals we love so much.

I have got to say,both of you to are dead on! Thank god that some one feels that way that I do. Fish and game will be coming to my house next friday,from what they say I will be the first house to be checked in PA. I was not at the Ohio show but my stuff was. They tried to fine us for a corn snake! Alot lf my frinds got fined for no good reason. And got their snake taken away from them. I own a small new expo here in Pa and I am pretty sure they will be they, butI am not sure. They is not to much more for me to add since you guys said every thing else that needed to be said. Other then that yes we
(some vendors) are getting a lawyer and seeing what we can do.
Link

I have been in reptiles for a long time,things are changeing,every one wants to point the finger at someone else,if everything was perfect we would be bored to death and we wouldnt have anything to talk about.Commercial collecting goes on all over the world,people make their living hunting snakes,we cant wait for the next ball python morph to be found in africa,but if someone goes to Florida and collects some corn snakes or scarlet kings,they should be shot,arrested,crucified,because someone else went there and didnt find anything,lets pass more laws, create more problems for the herp community we all love so well.we should work together so we can have, breed, sell, our animals without the fear of the goverment taking the few rights we have left. If some one wants to collect, so be it,thats where this all started from anyway.

but this:

"No other state which protects its native wildlife includes color morphs not commonly found in nature - only Ohio. Albinos (and other morphs) are exempt from regulation IN ALL OTHER STATES."

Is simply not true.

Tennessee does not allow keeping ANY member of the genus Elaphe regardless of origin or morph. Georgia does not allow keeping ANY non-venomous snakes that are native to Georgia REGARDLESS of their origin, color morph or whatever. You can't keep a 10th generation captive born albino Corn Snake no matter what documentation you have for it. There are others.

Just curious, since I may have to think about moving to one of those states. I live in Kentucky, which I think is a state not too strict about keeping reptiles, but I'm pretty clueless about what laws there are here in this state. So I have no way of knowing if reptile keeping laws in this state are strict or not.

There were people who were cited for collecting & selling native species!!!

The people cited can be broken down into 4 categories:

1. Those that were aware of the law & choose not to follow it (people who were collecting & selling native species and those not following DNR regulations regarding tagging animals)

2. Those who were not aware of the law & broke it. If you are unsure of a law, you research it until you are clear - know your state's laws! (this is the color morphs)

3. Vendors who had species misidentified (I only know 1 case of this)

4. Some breeders were cited for receiving animals that were the offspring (captive born) of illegally collected and transported adults. They were totally unaware of this until DNR told them.

There is much more to this story. People were treated poorly and there will be ripples through the community. The raid should have been targeted towards the 1st group ONLY, but if they look the other way for all the other things, how will be able to pursue the others?

In closing, I wanted to add that there were additional raids in states besides PA, MI, IN & OH. Raids happened in the Southern & Western US.