Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I finally had the chance to read the booklet in it's entirety last night.

I thought it to be a very entertaining piece. There are lots of stories that demonstrate intelligence, and lots of good info on how these animals live.

Some very interesting info on the possible co-habitation of adult females with one another and juvies as well. They confirm a lot of our assumptions that juvies hang out primarily in the wetlands, and live a very different life than adults.

It was certainly a good read if simply for all the stories of field observations. Amazing stuff here. I only wish some of us would have known this was in the works, we could have helped with some more detailed info on clutch sizes, incubation times, size / growth of neonates etc. I would have loved to have included info on getting cb babies to education centers to public exhibit / education etc as well.

Anyway...it certainly represented a LOT of hours of observation in the field, and is a worthwhile read.

As I mentioned, the booklet was entertaining and worth reading.

That said...I will say that there are some "out there" conclusions that are not supported by much data.

I don't want to sound negative, but...there are certain bold assumptions based on certain observations...and others making the same observations may have come to different conclusions.
One example: females may "enjoy" the company of other females.

If anyone has read...I have some points in it that I'd like to debate a bit.

Yeah, that's one of the problems with taking observational data and trying to conclude behavioral motivation for those observations. Humans, for some reason, have a tendency to assign human motivations to animal behavior. Human females tend to enjoy the company of other human females. So, you will see them hanging out together from time-to-time. This assignment of human behavior based motivations may, in fact, be valid with some animals. Animals with a higher level of intelligence, reasoning, and cognitive ability may tend to seek each other's company. For many animals, it may be a "safety in numbers" strategy, and for others such as certain primates it may be truly for company and companionship. For human females, it seems to nearly always relate to shopping or communicating (usually negatively) about their male counterparts.

I would imagine that for female couperi, it has nothing at all to do with any of the above. The most likely thing is that they happen to share the same piece of real estate and that particular place happens to be the best place to hang around for food, water, shelter, etc. As near as I can tell from all of my time observing snakes, they only "enjoy" eating, basking, mating and defecating in their water bowl. And, some do seem to derive at least a small amount of pleasure from biting the hand that feeds them. They could care less if another snake is around unless they want to eat it or mate with it. They are not social animals. Even when you find situations such as a couple of hundred rattlesnakes togtether in a den, it's not because they enjoy each other's company. It's because that's the den site they have been using for hundreds of years and it happens to be the best place for each individual snake to spend the winter.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

you are reading my mind.

I think there are certain retreat or hunting areas that are ideal for indigos of a certain age / size, and it so happens they end up there at the same time...as they both have found it a very suitable spot.

Female indigos may tolerate each other, and therefore co-habitat in burrows...but males...who are territorial by nature would never stand for any competetion for there favorite places.

It's a pleasant thought to imagine female indigos in "bachelorette" groups hanging out together and talking about the men...but all logic and everything I know about these animals
tells me they really only care about their own basic needs.

I don't know if what you'll read on this article is true, but was on National Geographic and published in the journal Biology Letters,I keep all my snakes singularly and haven't field experience so I can't say nothing about this matter, I know that my indigos love me only when I offer them something to eat!
regards
nazzza
Rattlesnakes Show Strong Family Bonds

burmese VS indigo
Huge, Freed Pet Pythons Invade Florida Everglades

That I would put almost zero stock in most of the content of that article. The one thing that I do agree with is that female Crotalus horridus do seem to spend a long time with their offspring. In August two years ago, on my property in South Georgia, I found a large female Canebrake in the shade under the trunk of a large White Oak tree that had been blown down by a storm. As I was in the process of capturing her, I noticed her shed skin a couple feet away from her. After I secured her, I was picking up her shed skin and I noticed what I though at first were small strips of her shed. What I found was that they were actually complete, fresh sheds of neonate Canebrakes. Eleven of them. I then found the babies in crevices of the root mass of the fallen tree. So, that means that she had stayed with these babies for approximately 10 days after parturition.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Most of the time, I find this tendency to try to find human emotion (such as affection) or human-like behavior in snakes mildly amusing. However, I think it sometimes has the potential to be dangerous, too. I met a guy a couple of years ago that had some very large (and beautiful) Gaboons, Rhinos and a few Rattlesnakes. My wife and I were there to purchase a couple of snakes from him. While we were there, he wanted to show us this particularly large and handsome Gaboon. I fully expected him to use a pair of hooks to remove the animal from it's cage. Nope. He reached in the cage with both hands, and picked the snake up mid-body and placed in on the floor in front of us. My heart nearly stopped. This was definitely NOT a venomoid snake. When I mentioned to him that this was not the preferred method for handling Gaboon Vipers, he said "Aww, hell...I've had this snake for years. He knows me. I have a relationship with him." Folks, he may have a relationship with that snake, but the snake absolutely does not have a relationship with him. If it wakes up on the wrong side of the bed one day and decides it doesn't want him to do that, he's toast. There's no possible way he has the reflexes to get out of the way...those things are like greased lightening when they strike and they can strike at angles you wouldn't believe possible from a snake built like that. I'm not sure why he hasn't been tagged yet, but I think it's a safe bet it's coming....and it ain't gonna be pretty. I would venture a guess that he doesn't use the same technique for his Rhinos and Rattlers, either. For some reason, he thinks that snake likes him....possibly a fatally bad judgement.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I too found the article interesting (especially the hunting accounts) & entertaining and I agree that we should avoid assigning human emotions and motives to snakes.

O.H., I have heard of and have even "done" some questionable things in the past but that has to be about the most "out there" thing i've ever heard of!
I know of a certain (now deceased) albino cobra that he wouldn't have grabbed that way! Right Rob?

Eric

Oh, yeah...I've had some Monacled Cobras that were nothing short of Psycho. This guy with the Gaboon was acting like "What? Everybody does this." He was a nice enough guy, just maybe a little off-center. I did get some very nice snakes from him that day, though. Haven't heard a word from him since then.....
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

yeah, I can see it....the female Indies meet at their fave burrow for a henfest, and bag on the males......"he's so full of himself--did you notice he kept his chin up the whole time he was talking to me? Showing off his red--what a loser!"

"Yeah, I know just what you mean...some of these guys think they're so hot. Don't they get it at all? What I wouldn't give for a nice constrictor--somone who knows how to cuddle..."

"Oh, I know! And you can count of them disappearing right after copulation! I'm all bitten up--like I'm gonna get a date in that condition, and he's all: 'Oh, uh, gotta go, baby...got a lot of territory to cover before mating season ends..' What crap. Makes me want to eat my young sometimes...."

Cackle, cackle, cackle.....

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

you read my mind......the part about the 'red chin' was esp. humorous! i may have to try that some friday night.......who knows? :>] btw, how are your baby 'whips coming?........

I'd say that the Westerns are turning into real serial killers of fuzzies--at least the male and female that started the killing spree--the other female is still liking geckos. I might say that I'll be brumating them soon, as temps in central AZ have only now reached night lows in the 50's and upper 40's. I might point out that they are all starting to demonstrate cognitive responses to feeding, such as coming to the glass when I have a paper bag in hand (the live fuzzies are from the pet shop, and are sold in a paper bag).

But, as this is the Indigo Forum, I won't say those things.

if you had, it might have gotten deleted.

coachwhips are cool....
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

HA HA!.............You left out the bantering amongst the ladies about what scent of musk they will be putting on for the daily outing. You just know that one of them has brought up this subject..........do black faced males really have a larger hemipenis?