Reptile & Amphibian Forums

5 female thayeri yearlings produced by Tim Gebhard and Dan Vermilya. Cagemates for the summer... the study went well.

I have an okeetee corn snake that looks very similar to the big one in the center of the pic (very light orange with deep red seperated by thick black borders). Very nice looking snakes, though. Thanks for sharing.

Zee

That orange with deep red and black borders like your okeetee is a striking combination isn't it! That color combination in an okeetee corn can be more vivid and striking than in even the most intense orange milksanke phase thayeri. I know you love that okeetee of yours!

Thanks for the compliment by the way Zee...

are you feeding them FT or live?

I feed only f/t, I keep bags of 'em stacked up in the freezer right next to honey pie's frozen veggies and breakfast sausage. Took her a while to get used to that one, some day I will get me a rodent freezer so she can rest easy!

I have been playing around with Carnivore Vitamin Spray by ESU Reptile, with a small group of my animals I have been injecting a small amount of this vitamin liquid into the gut of the f/t mice about every other feeding. The ones that get the vitamins grow like weeds and are very robust, I notice a difference. A lot of extra work but I think it is worth it. These 5 girls have been getting the vitamin boost.

Too bad not all my snakes eat FT's some prefer fresh killed and some only eat live. My better half USED to hate me using the kitchen freezer but she finally gave up and gave me the top shelf, that's pretty good for a snake hateful girl,lol.
Anyway I'm gonna think about the vitamin thing, seems to get good results. Thanks for letting me know.

My wife was recently dragged into a conversation between co-workers. One woman was complaining to the other about her husband keeping fish bait in her freezer because his garage freezer was broken. They asked her what she thought.

"I don't think I'm the one to talk to. My husband keeps frozen mice and rats in my freezer." They looked stunned, she took another bite of her lunch and added, "They're to feed to his snakes."

"In the house?" they questioned, "That's just nasty!"

So, I guess the fish bait, mice and rats aren't too bad, but the snakes are over the top.

Bob Bull

in this day and age people won't get over their fear and hatred for snakes?

.....the human animal. Ya just can't breed it out!

You guys make me flop around on the floor like a snake on the run! LOL!!!

All the scientific literature states that it is highly foolish to keep snake-eating species together - especially Kingsnakes.

You risked losing 1 or all but 1 of them, an expensive risk. (One breeder I know lost his breeding male to the female who was only 3 inches larger. It happened fast.)

What you didn't realize, and feel, was the daily fear & terror felt by the smaller specimens. They have a natural instinct telling them to be afraid of larger snakes. You ensured that they lived in terror - all summer.

Next time, please be responsible and care for your animals properly - in separate housing.

Thanks for your reply and thoughts Ameron, here are some details:

I have done all of that homework, and then some... I assure you that I am no foolish beginner. I keep and will breed these thayeri not for the profit or just as pets, it is intended to be a life long project to study, enjoy and share what I learn about these incredible animals with others.

Some of the best and most experienced keepers/breeders successfully do this on a large scale and have for years and I needed to see it for myself. One of the most successful and respected kingsnake breeders I know of keeps a breeder male in with many females completely through breeding season as standard practice, and he does this with several different species. My intention is not to continue this, however with my personal experience it is obvious that females enjoy the companionship. They follow each other around their enclosure and den up together as you see, rarely separating from the group. I have a mature breding pair of female greeri that live together and are inseparable. They den up together in the same wet hide even though I keep two separate wet hides available for them. They had even accepted a breeder male as a part of their group full time, all three of them would pack up together in the same "den". I have an adult pair of alterna females that are the very same way in their behavior together. I attempted a male in with them also on a full time basis, but he has a one-track mind and wouldn't leave the girls alone so he had to move back into his bachelor pad.

If the animals are of the same age and size(which mine are that you see), fed responsibly and well kept as they should be, rarely will there be a problem with cannibalism. Females will occasionally prey on males, especially with thayeri, so that is a no no in most situations. When breeding you need to be extra sensitive to this and observe closely I understand, I know someone as well who lost his prize lemon yellow breeder male thayeri to the female. We all live and learn by our own experience, even when science warns us of the risks.

I did have one bad experience with cannibalism. I made the mistake of housing in with that group that you see, a very slightly smaller animal. A male. He was seemingly cozy with the group and I was comfortable with that, he would cruise around happily along with the group and wind up with them all, denning up as you see with the females in the pic. That saturated orange leonis female that you see has an appetite that seemingly can not be satisfied, and one early morning this ever so slightly smaller male specimen became breakfast. He was to be my prized saturated orange breeder male. Bummer! Now, to counter that... in another yearling group I have a yearling male of equal size housed with a few female yearlings. They coexist extremely well, not the slightest hint of tension, distress or fear. This male dens up with the girls in a tight cluster and they seem happy to have him there. I am certain he enjoys their company! lol! Rest assured, I do monitor this very closely and at the slightest hint of distress or fear, the affected animal would be removed.

I was well educated going into this study... and accepted the risk. You do not know me, I assure you and anyone reading this that I care for these animals much more responsibly than you realize and am very responsible with my methods and care. I in fact insured that they lived very comfortably, extremely well cared for and satisfied... all summer!

I do truly appreciate your comments, I was hoping for this kind of input from someone. I also very much appreciate your caring and responsible nature, it is valuable. And I am not suggesting this to everyone, simply giving another example and sharing the experience that it can work well if handled responsibly. If anyone reading this doesn't have the experience with these animals or the time and focus to attempt this responsibly, by all means... don't take the chance. Not only can it be costly, but as Ameron implied... very cruel if neglected.

I contest that the animals seeming to den together in happiness is due to climatic conditions rather than a love for one another.

Alterna and thayeri do not 'den' in the wild. The males seek out females once a year during breeding season. To my knowledge, they have only been seen together in the wild in male/female pairs during the height of mating season.

What is phase two of your 'experiment'? Are you going to separate them and determine if they feel loneliness, longing, separation anxiety, and depression? Maybe this opens up an entirely new field... snake psychology!

Cannibalism or no cannibalism, your logic is very strange and incredibly un-scientific.

But that said, the Philly zoo has a great alterna exhibit with a half dozen various sized snakes in it. They even kept offspring of one female in the exhibit and now it is three or four years old. I don't think you will have many problems with the alterna together... but I would be surprised if the thayers don't eat each other sooner of later... again.

...you obviously didn't give yourself enough time to digest and understand what I had to say, you seemed a little too intent on being confrontationally critical. And a bit ridiculous with a few of your comments. I don't come here to do what you are attempting to draw me into, there may be another forum for that. Had you been a touch more reasonable we may have had a valuable discussion.

Go back in a calm mood and read what I had to say a few more times, you just might get the point.

You possess much more experience and insight than the average "pet owner". Most of us forum users are not in a position to critique you.

Based on what you describe, your animals are healthy and happy. I did not have all the information. I was hasty in my judgement.

For how long will the gals live together without an "incident"? Who knows, but to live is to risk, and I'm a live feeder. (Oh no! Now everyone knows!! I may need to move to Canada!!!) I also feed variety, taking some risk with parasites - knowing that if needed I can always treat later with medicine injected into a feeder mouse.

Risk surrounds everything worth having...

I am sorry about the sarcasm of my post. It was unnecessary. I really did not intend to come across like a jerk. I was actually trying to have a normal debate, but I am a bit of a smart-@ass.

I did reread you post, and I still contest that the animals are no more 'happy' living together than living alone. I think the reason they share a hide is because they share the same environmental requirements. In my opinion, you are making false assumptions about their affection towards one another. Claiming they are inseparable is just plain strange.

It is fun and cute to personify animals, but it is also very un-scientific. I guess what irked me most about your post is I felt you were high on your horse about some grand science experiment, and then you went on to give your snake very human characteristics… something that is not very scientific at all.

If you have some literature dealing with thayers or alterna denning in the wild. I would love to read it. The idea that they are ‘happier’ in a den situation is a fascinating proposition.

Thank you,
Tom Anderson

You defended your assertions well. With logic & reason, and specific examples.

I've not had the extra experience and insight that you describe. Extraordinary results with your gals! (It does make sense that females would get along better together.)

The group sex thing is interesting, in that it is fairly common in nature. With dolphins, certain whales, coyotes and other animals, it is not uncommon for 2 males to breed with 1 female, or the other way around. I had not heard of this type of communal sharing with any reptiles, however, but with tortoises often sharing dens, it likely occurs among them, too.