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I guess this is kind of multiple questions/observations in one... I've been seeing bullsnake advertisements recently that have me scratching my head. A snake cannot be "het for Kingsville red" or "het for Crumbly line," correct? If one parent is a red bull, the offspring could be called 50% Kingsville/Crumbly, but *not* het, since neither Kingsville (a locale) nor Crumbly (a line-bred trait) are simple recessive traits. Did I get that right?

Along those same lines, by purchasing a "het" or 50% Stillwater hypo you will *never* be able to produce Stillwater hypos using that animal unless you're breeding it to another bull from the Stillwater area, correct? Hypos yes, but not Stillwaters. I guess I'm a little confused at what people are trying to accomplish. Are they simply introducing new blood to the line, or trying to create something new? To introduce new blood to the line, wouldn't you need to collect another bull from the Stillwater area?

Finally, what is the scoop on "golden" Stillwater hypos? How are they any different than the original Stillwater hypos that Ginter produces? I have always been under the assumption that "golden" was somewhat of a marketing tool to make the snakes sound more attractive. Please let me know if this is not correct, and there is more to a golden Stillwater hypo than simply having originated from Ginter's project. Animals from this bloodline *are* golden, and "golden Stillwater hypo" seems redundant.

I'm not trying to offend anyone or start a debate with the folks who may have posted ads similar to those I mentioned above. I simply want to understand the genetics better.

Thanks for your time,
Ronda

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Ronda Van Winkle
Northwest Herpetoculture

Ronda,

I agree wholeheartedly with your post and have wondered the exact same things!

By the way...that pic of your red bull along with the full body shots of those are incredible!

LATER!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

You are correct; it is mostly an attempt to market animals for sale and is inaccurate. Neither strain of red bulls results form a recessive gene, so a "het red" does not exist. A "golden" Stillwater hypo is also just an added name. If you see something advertised as "het for Stillwater hypo", it is really only 1/2 Stillwater because it must have come from a non-Stillwater parent(otherwise it would be a Stillwater hypo, not a het), unless someone happened to have a normal Stillwater locale animal(we have one, actually), but that isn't likely to be the case.
P&S Pituophis

sick to death of the hets for everything when its a line bred non simple recessive trait to begin with (on the reds that is).

I have some animals that are the product of a hypo stillwater bull x a kingsville red bull and I was thinking of breeding it to a crumbly red bull and sell them as triple hets??/LOL..........J/K but thats whats going on.

it either is or it isn't?amen.

later shannon

p.s. theres always a p.s. huh?
I am working on breeding the Miami county axanthic to a hypo stillwater next year cause thats the line of hypo I want use and thats the only true way to get a ghost,So,when we offer(if we do)any dbl-het offspring from this breeding they will be listed as such so to keep the lines clean.

"A snake cannot be "het for Kingsville red" or "het for Crumbly line," correct? If one parent is a red bull, the offspring could be called 50% Kingsville/Crumbly, but *not* het, since neither Kingsville (a locale) nor Crumbly (a line-bred trait) are simple recessive traits."

just goes to snow ya...

it's good to know the breeder and have confidence that they know what they're doing. in this case, a little incorrect genetics vocabulary exposes a lack of simple genetics understanding.

matt

I breed the "Stillwater" Bulls (My breeders originated from John Ginter), and I call mine "Golden" hypos for the simple reason that their color is a golden yellow/orange.
(Those of you who have seen them in person can attest to the difference in coloration.)
When you put them side by side they don't even compare in coloration to the average hypo Bullsnake. And so when placing ads I needed something descriptive to set them apart.

I will also be breeding some normal "Stillwater" Bullsnakes into my "Golden" hypo "Stillwater's". This will produce normal "Stillwater"Bullsnakes that will be het for "Golden"hypo.

And I agree that if you breed a "Kingsville" bullsnake with a normal bullsnake the offspring can not be het for "Kingsville", but they can still be het for the red trait.

JimHGH

Hi Jim,

I breed the "Stillwater" Bulls (My breeders originated from John Ginter), and I call mine "Golden" hypos for the simple reason that their color is a golden yellow/orange. (Those of you who have seen them in person can attest to the difference in coloration.) When you put them side by side they don't even compare in coloration to the average hypo Bullsnake. And so when placing ads I needed something descriptive to set them apart.

I think you may have missed my point. All Stillwater hypo bulls have the golden color (that seems to be the beauty of the Stillwater locale), so calling them "Golden Stillwater hypos" is redundant. Using the "golden" name seems to be confusing people as well. I've had buyers ask me if my Stillwater hypos are the "golden" variety. They are Stillwaters, so yes, they are golden. On the other hand, if you have non-Stillwater hypo bulls that are gold/yellow/orange in color, then by all means, they should be called golden hypos.

I will also be breeding some normal "Stillwater" Bullsnakes into my "Golden" hypo "Stillwater's". This will produce normal "Stillwater"Bullsnakes that will be het for "Golden"hypo.

That's great! I'm glad to see that the Stillwater hypos are being bred to other bulls from the Stillwater locale. And yes, you will end up with Stillwater bulls that are het for hypo. I still disagree with the use of the redundant term "golden," and believe we should stick with the name Ginter gave them. This is only my opinion, but I think it is misleading to market golden Stillwater hypos as something different than Stillwater hypos. It's like saying "red Okeetee corn," which is also redundant.

And I agree that if you breed a "Kingsville" bullsnake with a normal bullsnake the offspring can not be het for "Kingsville", but they can still be het for the red trait.

Actually, no (read Shaun's reply above). The red color is not a simple recessive trait, and thus bulls cannot be het for it. The red color is a selectively bred trait. There is no such thing as "het for red" regardless if the lineage is Kingsville or Crumbly. Breeding a red bull to a non-red bull will produce offspring that will have varying degrees of red.

Sorry for the lengthy thoughts. Just trying to clarify the points I made in my original post.

Take care,
Ronda
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Ronda Van Winkle
Northwest Herpetoculture

probably loose most its genetic makeup and would have to be line bred back to show the color trait once again?

No such thing as het for red.And the Golden thing needs to stop as well.I have 4.4 adult hypo stillwaters and they come in all kinds of colors.They are just hypo stillwaters and thats it.

later
shannon

This genetics stuff makes my head spin. Lets see, the name Stillwater is a locale but it also identifies this particular type of hypo? So if you cross it with another non Stillwater locale bull you get hets. for the Stillwater hypo trait? When you breed these hets to each other you get some hypos that appear as Stillwater hypos, but their not? It has been my understanding that Stillwater Hypo identified the trait not the locale, although the founding stock did come from the Stillwater area. Did Ginter use Stillwater locale normals to prove the recessive trait of these bulls? I'm getting a headache!
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Tim Madsen

Nobody cares how much you know,
Until they know how much you care.

Tim,

John never had to breed outside the locale cause it was acually two snakes (normal in apperance) that were rescude from a rattlesnake roundup in stillwater.
They were saved and ended up being a pair so they were bred together and produced a few hypos in the clutch so the two wild caughts were hets?

This is going to be just like the okkettee corn story in a few years,It started out as a "LOCALE" thing but after a while it was just a "LOOK" thing.

I will be telling people ten years from now about how the stillwater hypos got there name?LOL.....

Anyways,There is nothing better than a locale morph in my book.

shannon

I totally agree with you Shannon! Locale morphs are, to me, really special and the Stillwater hypo definately falls into that category.

The Okeetee thing is very sad....cause again...that is a locale morph.

It would be really cool if there were actual Stillwater bulls collected and bred back into the hypo line to keep it strong. Does anybody know if that has been done, or anyone here able to do that yet?

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Just my opinion but I think nameing a new morph after a locality was a bad idea. Like it or not Stillwater has come to denote a strain of hypo. Remember these were outcrossed to other localities even before they became widely available. In that regard het for stillwater hypo is legit. Het for Stillwater locality isn't. As for het for Crumbly or Ginter line both are line bred traits. You can outcross but the offspring either are or are not red bulls. The male I sold Ronda was an F1 cross to an albino. Because the male we used was so intense the offspring came out nice and were sold as a Crumbly line reds though assigned a lesser monetary value. I think the pics on Ronda's site bear out that thoughtful outcrossing doesn't compromise color that awefull much. Assuming increased genetic vigor the effort appears to have been worth the result.

As for a crumbly X ginter cross, when crossing a locality into a generic strain, you loss locality status. In my opinion the generic status would trump and they should be called Crumble reds.

If I breed a male Crumbly red that I purchased from the crawl space to a female kingsville red that I purchased from John Cherry what would the proper way be to label their offspring?

Kingsville/Crumbly
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Tim Madsen

Nobody cares how much you know,
Until they know how much you care.