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Could Mexican phase and Texas phase Pantherophis bairdi be different species?

hermanbronsgeest Nov 03, 2004 03:27 AM

Just consider the differences listed below:

Geography: Ranges do not overlap, but are separated by a gap of several hundreds of miles. No populations having intermediate specimens known to date.

Ecology: The Texas phase is adapted to a hot and arid environment, therefore it's mostly nocturnal and spends most of the day hidden deep down in rocky crevices. Texas phase bairdi rarely, if ever, climb trees or other kinds of vegetation. The Mexican phase on the other hand is closely linked to much cooler high altitude pine / oak forest, and is known to be a very arboreal snake. Also, it's diet seems to be a bit more focussed on birds instead of rodents or lizards.

Morphology: The Texas phase bairdi has about the same body shape as any other Pantherophis species. The Mexican phase on the other hand has a laterally compressed bodyshape, a trait shared with many arboreal snakes, giving the animal a much more slender appearance. Also, there are some considerable differences in head structure. The Mexican phase has a more slender mouth, with a prominent ridge between the eyes and the nostrils. The eyes obviously are significantly bigger than in the Texas phase and seem to be directed a bit more forward in the Mexican phase, alowing a higher degree of bifocal vision.

Ethology: The Mexican phase bairdi has a very fierce feeding response compared to the Texas face, and they seem to like birds a lot more better too. Also, they are very arboreal snakes and are significantly more flexibel in their diurnal versus nocturnal activity modus, whereas the Texas phase bairdi is mostly a nocturnal and fossorial snake and rarely, if ever, climb at all.

The juveniles of both phases on the other hand are quite similar, but this similarity could be selectively driven by its shared similarity to another snake which shares their habitat. The Texas phase bairdi occurs in the same area as Crotalus lepidus lepidus, whereas the Mexican phase's natural range coinsides with that of Crotalus lepidus molurus. This kind of mimicry is also known from another species of snake which shares their habitat, Lampropeltis alterna, so this hypothesis really is not as far fetched as it may seem.

Obviously, these two snakes are closely related and share a common ancestor. But are they related to the degree in the true sence of a biological species? I would not bet on. In fact, if there are any herpetologists out there who would like to discover a 'new' species, I'd say here's your chance! Since the Pantherophis bairdi holotype is a Texas phase specimen, I would like to propose Pantherophis angusticeps as an appropiate name for the Mexican phase.

I would really like to get some response on this issue guys!

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest, The Netherlands.

Replies (22)

Terry Cox Nov 03, 2004 06:27 AM

Herman,

I would like to respond to your post, but I only have a few minutes before I have to go to work. So, I'll keep it short and just put up a couple ideas.

New taxonomy depends on who's doing it. There's lots of comparisons we can do, such as the fox snakes, Pantherophis vulpina and P. gloydi. As far as I can tell they were given species status because their ranges do not meet. Corn snakes and Great Plains ratsnakes are sometimes separated, but are not generally accepted as separate species. So, we have the subspecies, P. g. guttata and P. g. emoryi.

Changing the taxonomy on Baird's ratsnake vs. Mexican Baird's will depend on studies of their scalation and genetics, I think. Baird's rats are closely related to P. obsoleta, and sometimes thought of as a subspecies of that species. I don't think it will come down to their separated ranges or differences in behavior. I like your report, however, and greatly appreciate the information on differences in body shape and behaviors. I really like those Mexican Baird's and wouldn't mind seeing more photos showing their body shape and behaviors. I would like to know if there's a difference in how large they get (are Mex. smaller?) I'd also like to know who is breeding the best Mex. Baird's.

Thanks much for your post

Terry

-----
Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

hermanbronsgeest Nov 03, 2004 07:36 AM

Thanx for sharing your ideas about the taxonomy issue. I must agree that animal taxonomy thus far seems to be a rather subjective kind of pseudoscience, the amount of diversity in a taxon depending on the person working on it, rather than biological reality. Just like you did I can give some examples of this as well, for instance subspecific diversity in Lampropeltis getula versus Lampropeltis triangulum. Since the validity of the very distinct Lampropeltis getula goini as a subspecies has been discarded by Blaney, it has never been reissued seriously again and so this race is condemned into synonimity with floridana since then. The same goes for the Outer Banks Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula sticticeps, which got synomized with Lampropeltis getula getula. On the other hand, there seems to be consensus about the validity of the very similar and, well at last in my opinion, heavily oversplit Central American subspecies in Lampropeltis triangulum. For instance, could anyone seriously tell a nelsoni from a sinaloae or a hondurensis from a stuarti without locality data? Really? And the list of examples goes on and on...

Anyway, I welcome any ideas on the Mexican versus Texas phase Pantherophis bairdi issue. Ik kept both morphs and I think they are quite distinct. Needless to say, you don't have to agree with me, I am just curious if there are people out there who have considered this possibility as well.

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest, The Netherlands.

Terry Cox Nov 03, 2004 11:29 AM

I have kept the TX morph before, but not the Mexican. Thus I am very curious about your observations on the Mex. form.

Another example for comparison is the scarlet kingsnake to the Eastern milksnake. I've argued that there are no intergrades. In fact I believe they are incapable of intergrading and should be separate species, and yet, they continue to be viewed as the same species. Maybe someday genetics will show how different they really are.

Terry

chrish Nov 03, 2004 12:39 PM

Another example for comparison is the scarlet kingsnake to the Eastern milksnake. I've argued that there are no intergrades. In fact I believe they are incapable of intergrading and should be separate species, and yet, they continue to be viewed as the same species. Maybe someday genetics will show how different they really are.

I agree that milksnake taxonomy is a mess, but you can't solve the problem by looking at triangulum and elapsoides. They don't intergrade, but elapsoides intergrades with amaura, which intergrades with syspila, which intergrades with triangulum.
So is elapsoides different than amaura?
Is amaura different than syspila?
Is syspila different than triangulum?

If you split elapsoides, you have to have a big zone of hybridization somewhere.

I think the reality is that you have a sort of ring species pattern in the eastern US, similar to what is going on in the famous Ensatina example on the west coast.

The real disaster in milksnake taxonomy is whether you accept that triangulum, elapsoides, and micropholis are all the same species of snake. If they aren't...where are the cutoff lines?
-----
Chris Harrison

Terry Cox Nov 03, 2004 05:21 PM

I agree that milksnake taxonomy is a mess, but you can't solve the problem by looking at triangulum and elapsoides. They don't intergrade, but elapsoides intergrades with amaura, which intergrades with syspila, which intergrades with triangulum.

Well, you're right, Chris. I keep forgetting that triangulum is linked to elapsoides through syspila. I should have said that t. triangulum and t. elapsoides act like different species when they come into contact. Does cause a problem though.

I guess t. micropholis has to be in the species for the same reason, even though it is laughable to think t. elapsoides and t. micropholis are the same species as different as they are. Guess it shows that outward appearances can be deceiving.

chrish Nov 03, 2004 12:23 PM

"Since the validity of the very distinct Lampropeltis getula goini as a subspecies has been discarded by Blaney, it has never been reissued seriously again and so this race is condemned into synonimity with floridana since then."

Actually, Krysko recently published his review of the kingsnakes from the FL pandhandle are resurrected "goini" as a valid subspecies, except that he decided to rename it (on a bull[bleep] technicality, IMHO) L.g. meansi.
-----
Chris Harrison

hermanbronsgeest Nov 04, 2004 05:04 AM

I will look into that. Thanx mate.

Herman Bronsgeest.

Terry Cox Nov 03, 2004 11:23 AM

I really would like to know if the Mexican morph is smaller than the Texan morph. It would make a difference to me, because I prefer snakes on the smaller side and snakes that are somewhat arboreal too. Anyone have pics of Mexican bairdi climbing?

My favorite American ratsnake is guttata for these reasons. Fact is, some are smaller than others and some races climb better. It is the best pet species. I could be persuaded to look into Mexican bairdi as another great pet, however, with a little help. Anyone up for more pics?

TC

Hurley Nov 03, 2004 04:21 PM

It's funny hearing that Texas Bairdi never climb. I have a pair that love to climb. In fact, when I had a tree in with them, the female would invariably be curled up in a crook in the branches. She loves to climb. The male does, also, but the female thrives on it.
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~~~Hurley

hermanbronsgeest Nov 04, 2004 02:18 AM

I did not say Texas phase Pantherophis never climb, I'm saying that they rarely climb. I keep several locality types of Texas phase bairdi, and I have never seem any of the up in the branches. By the way, are you really sure that your animals are pure Texas phase animals and not some kind of Tex/Mex crossbreed? I have seen many examples of this on the internet and reptile exchanges, so it could be a possible explanation for the behaviour you have been observing.

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

Mark Banczak Nov 03, 2004 06:46 PM

.

hermanbronsgeest Nov 04, 2004 02:47 AM

Hello Terry,

I am fortunate enough to own 2.1 adult Mexican phase Pantherophis bairdi. Also, I have seen many other examples as well of both the Texas and the Mexican phase, Pantherophis bairdi is common in European private collections. Therefore, I can safely say that the Mexican phase bairdi is not typically smaller than the Texas phase bairdi. They seem to grow to a maximum length of about 5 feet, which is definately smaller than the great lengths sometimes seen in the eastern Texas phase (to 6 feet and up), but there are also many examples of Texas phase bairdi that grow to only 4 feet or even less. Also it's quite interesting to see that in the Texas phase the males seem to grow significantly larger than the females, whereas in the Mexican phase this sexual dimorphic difference in size is practically nonexistant. Also, the Mexican phase seems to be a lot more slender, having a somewhat laterally compressed bodyshape, quite similar to many other kinds of arboreal snakes.

Mexican phase Pantherophis bairdi can sometimes be a bit more challenging to keep than the average cornsnake. However, if you give them plenty of space, keep humidity levels low, and do not overfeed, then they do make fine captives.

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

Terry Cox Nov 04, 2004 05:16 AM

Herman, thank you for the photo and information. It sounds like the size of the Mexican bairdi is manageable with cages not too awefully large. I've seen a few other pics of them and they don't seem that much different from TX bairdi, however. Yours does look slightly slimmer, but I'm not sure it looks any more laterally compressed. I might try a pair in the future to see for myself. Thanks for the strand.

Terry
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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

hermanbronsgeest Nov 04, 2004 06:47 AM

Hello Terry,

Mexican bairdi's are great animals to have, but you should realise that they may turn out to be not quite as easy to maintain as you might think they are. If you don't want to find out the hard way, maybe you'd like to read the humidity discussion on the lower end of this page. But then again, if you are able to meet it's requirements, it will be a joy to watch these fantastic animals thrive.

However, in recent years there has been a significant amount of crossbreeding. I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, actually some of the crossbreeds I have seen were breathtakingly beautiful. But if you are focussed on pure Mexicans exclusively, then I guess you need to know about this.

Good luck,

Herman Bronsgeest.

chrish Nov 03, 2004 07:26 AM

Just some comments about some of your statements....

Geography: Ranges do not overlap, but are separated by a gap of several hundreds of miles. No populations having intermediate specimens known to date.

The absence of intermediate specimens in a poorly collected area of north American may not mean anything at all.
Furthermore, there are significant gaps within the range of Texas bairdi populations, such as in the Davis Mts and Chisos Mts.
They are only really continuously distributed in the eastern part of their range. I don't think this gap (I assume you are basing this on a thorough knowledge of museum specimens?) has any significance in this light.

How much evidence of gene flow is there between the populations as we know them now?

Ecology: The Texas phase is adapted to a hot and arid environment, therefore it's mostly nocturnal and spends most of the day hidden deep down in rocky crevices. Texas phase bairdi rarely, if ever, climb trees or other kinds of vegetation.

In much of their range, TX bairdi are restricted to cooler heavily wooded hillsides. The only reason we get the impression that they are snakes of open desert country is because most bairdi that are found are found by people hunting for alterna at night. Bairdi are much more common in wooded areas.

The Mexican phase on the other hand is closely linked to much cooler high altitude pine / oak forest, and is known to be a very arboreal snake. Also, it's diet seems to be a bit more focussed on birds instead of rodents or lizards.

If this is true, it may simply be a populational adaptation to the habitat that is available. I don't know that this basis alone would warrant separation of a questionably allopatric population.
Furthermore, where does the habitat transition take place? In Big Bend National Park, bairdi are also largely restricted to the high pine/oak woodlands.

Morphology: The Texas phase bairdi has about the same body shape as any other Pantherophis species. The Mexican phase on the other hand has a laterally compressed bodyshape, a trait shared with many arboreal snakes, giving the animal a much more slender appearance. Also, there are some considerable differences in head structure. The Mexican phase has a more slender mouth, with a prominent ridge between the eyes and the nostrils. The eyes obviously are significantly bigger than in the Texas phase and seem to be directed a bit more forward in the Mexican phase, alowing a higher degree of bifocal vision.

If this is true, is it a character that changes abruptly at some area, or is there a slow clinal shift as you go from one area to the next?
Are you basing this on the few lines of Mexican bairds in captivity, or have you examined real Mexican specimens in collections?

Ethology: The Mexican phase bairdi has a very fierce feeding response compared to the Texas face, and they seem to like birds a lot more better too. Also, they are very arboreal snakes and are significantly more flexibel in their diurnal versus nocturnal activity modus, whereas the Texas phase bairdi is mostly a nocturnal and fossorial snake and rarely, if ever, climb at all.

I suspect that over most of their range, they climb frequently. And this is where the transition doesn't make sense.
If you are proposing that TX pops are more closely related to obsoleta, why don't they show they same arboreal tendencies as obsoleta in central Texas where they come together? I think the probably do. The problem is, we tend to look for them on roads at night. Where are they hunting at dusk or on cooler days?

The juveniles of both phases on the other hand are quite similar, but this similarity could be selectively driven by its shared similarity to another snake which shares their habitat. The Texas phase bairdi occurs in the same area as Crotalus lepidus lepidus, whereas the Mexican phase's natural range coinsides with that of Crotalus lepidus molurus. This kind of mimicry is also known from another species of snake which shares their habitat, Lampropeltis alterna, so this hypothesis really is not as far fetched as it may seem.

Actually, juveniles look more like juvenile obsoleta than they do lepidus or alterna. Furthermore, many saxicolous snakes worldwide (Telescopus, Trimorphodon, C. lepidus, alterna, etc.) have this same pattern. I don't think the mimicry hypothesis is very parsimonious when you look at snakes as different as Telescopus and L. alterna.

Obviously, these two snakes are closely related and share a common ancestor. But are they related to the degree in the true sence of a biological species?

This may be worthy of investigation, but I think it is a little too early to draw a priori conclusions based on any of the data you have put forward here.

Since the Pantherophis bairdi holotype is a Texas phase specimen, I would like to propose Pantherophis angusticeps as an appropiate name for the Mexican phase.

Have you looked into the potential synonimies that already exist within the species? No other names have been applied to the Mexican pops?
The right to propose a name is reserved for those who actually do the work, not those who simply toss around a hypothesis.

My problem with your conjecture is that it is just that, conjecture. Don't get me wrong here, I salute your interest in this problem, but you seem to be drawing conclusions in the absence of data. Get the data, evaluate it properly, and then draw some conclusions.

I could make a similar arguement for eastern and western populations of Crotalus lepidus klauberi -
1. eastern and western pops look different
2. eastern and western pops are found in different habitat
3. eastern and western pops are isolated by inhospitable habitats

I don't think that is a just basis for taxonomic separation. It would take a lot more real data to justify this.
-----
Chris Harrison

hermanbronsgeest Nov 03, 2004 09:00 AM

I know that the evidence is rather poor, I am just trying to start a discussion here. It is a forum, isn't it? If I had the scientific evidence, I would have tried to get it published in a scientific medium such as Copeia. Certainly, my ideas are purely based on deductions made from what I read in scientific and popular literature, and on my observations while keeping both morphs in captivity.

I totally agree on your comment on 'Pantherophis angusticeps'. I'm not working on it so I have no bussiness giving any name to any taxon. However, if anyone would decide to give this possibility a serious thought, then P. angusticeps would sound good to me, and that's all I'm trying to say here. As far as I know, there are no older names available. If you know one, please share.

I am well aware of the fact that at higher altitudes the Texan morphs frequents forested areas as well. But does it ever get arboreal? Does it share the same characteristic adaptations to this environment as the Mexican morph? Also, I am quite aware of the fact that the distributional gap between Mexican and Texan populations fits perfectly in the rather patchy distributional pattern of both subgroups of many disjunct populations. However, I don't think that the distributional gap can be attributed entirely to a lack of knowledge, since that area has been the focus of many herpetologist and herpetoculturists as well for decades. So if there were any intermediate populations, we propabely should have known it by now, shouldn't we? Therefore I think it's safe to say that the morphological variation in Pantherophis bairdi isn't clinal, and that we safely can assume that the Texan and Mexican morphs are distinct. Again, if you have any knowledge proving otherwise, you are welcome to share this information with me.

About the mimicry issue: I am not sure of what you are trying to say here. To you a juvenile Pantherophis bairdi might look more similar to a Pantherophis obsoleta than to a Crotalus lepidus, but your personal opinion on this is of no significance to the survival of the species. What really matters is the instinctive reaction of the potential predator when he discovers the potential prey. And I doubt that these predators read any field guides... I know there are many examples of other species superficially similar to Crotalus lepidus. Does this falsify the possibility of Pantherophis bairdi as a mimic? I would rather think the opposite. So if we agree on the fact that both Texan and Mexican juvenile Pantherophis bairdi are at least superficially similar to Crotalus lepidus, than wouldn't it be plausible that the similarity between the juveniles of both taxa can be explained by the fact that they share their habitat with a venomous snake they both seem to mimic? That's the point I was trying to make with the mimicry issue.

Anyway, I appreciate your input on this issue very much. I know I do not have much scientific data to show for, nor does anyone and I guess that's the real problem here.

Let's keep in touch, shall we?

Herman Bronsgeest, The Netherlands.

chrish Nov 03, 2004 01:01 PM

As far as I know, there are no older names available. If you know one, please share.

The EMBL database doesn't list any synonyms for the mexican population, but it seems odd to me that none exist (knowing the history of mexican snake taxonomy).

I am well aware of the fact that at higher altitudes the Texan morphs frequents forested areas as well. But does it ever get arboreal? Does it share the same characteristic adaptations to this environment as the Mexican morph?

I don't know, but I think there is a very strong collecting bias which tends to suggest to us that these snakes are terrestrial. How many people have ever looked for them up in the trees in Texas?

Furthermore, it inhabits forested areas in the eastern parts of its range as well - here's a photo of some good bairdi habitat in the NE side of their range -

Also, I am quite aware of the fact that the distributional gap between Mexican and Texan populations fits perfectly in the rather patchy distributional pattern of both subgroups of many disjunct populations. However, I don't think that the distributional gap can be attributed entirely to a lack of knowledge, since that area has been the focus of many herpetologist and herpetoculturists as well for decades. So if there were any intermediate populations, we propabely should have known it by now, shouldn't we?

I guess that depends on what part of the range we are talking about. Yes, in central and west TX, we have a really good feel for their distribution (although they may occur high in some of the other West TX ranges that haven't been searched). But once you cross the border, it is one big black box! There are a few areas that have been examined, but most areas simply have not. And the absence of data isn't data.

Therefore I think it's safe to say that the morphological variation in Pantherophis bairdi isn't clinal, and that we safely can assume that the Texan and Mexican morphs are distinct.

Again, I haven't seen or heard of any data supporting this. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just that I don't know of any data to support this.

About the mimicry issue: I am not sure of what you are trying to say here. To you a juvenile Pantherophis bairdi might look more similar to a Pantherophis obsoleta than to a Crotalus lepidus, but your personal opinion on this is of no significance to the survival of the species. What really matters is the instinctive reaction of the potential predator when he discovers the potential prey. And I doubt that these predators read any field guides... I know there are many examples of other species superficially similar to Crotalus lepidus. Does this falsify the possibility of Pantherophis bairdi as a mimic? I would rather think the opposite. So if we agree on the fact that both Texan and Mexican juvenile Pantherophis bairdi are at least superficially similar to Crotalus lepidus, than wouldn't it be plausible that the similarity between the juveniles of both taxa can be explained by the fact that they share their habitat with a venomous snake they both seem to mimic? That's the point I was trying to make with the mimicry issue.

Then how could you explain the fact that Telescopus which come from the same habitats on another continent have the same pattern as well? I prefer the explanation that this pattern somewhow makes the snakes less conspicuous to predators within their rocky habitat and therefore the pattern similarities are a matter of convergence.

Furthermore, I have never seen a lepidus that really looked anything like a juvenile bairdi, other than having a similar background color.

My point was that juvenile bairdi look like juvenile obsoleta because they are sister species. So the pattern of juv bairdi is more a result of its phylogeny than its adaptation to a rocky habitat.

And don't misunderstand my disagreement. This is an interesting discussion, I just wish we had some more hard data to rely on.

Do you have a range map for this species south of the border?
-----
Chris Harrison

Terry Cox Nov 03, 2004 06:43 PM

>>And don't misunderstand my disagreement. This is an interesting discussion, I just wish we had some more hard data to rely on.
>>

I agree, Chris, it's an interesting discussion. I guess I like these topics, because I find myself in them often enough. It has really spurred my interest in bairdi again, especially the Mexican race.

You make some very good points. Let me add something here.

One species I'm quite familiar with is P. guttata. As stated, I like the morphs that are smaller and slightly more arboreal. I believe that all Pantherophis have some climbing ability and can be said to be semi-arboreal. It's one of the general characteristics of the (old) Elaphe genus. With guttata, I can see some trends to be smaller and more arboreal the further south you go, however. At the least, I would say the corns of the FL Keys are more arboreal than the corns from, say, the Okeetee region. Okeetee corns are much larger also. Keys' corns tend to be more slender too.

Could this trend be occuring with P. bairdi as well? This is one reason why I'm asking questions about the Mex bairdi. Maybe these southern extremes of the species range has the effect of making ratsnakes change this way. I know it's just a guess at this point, but I'm curious, and would like to examine the situation further.

Also, if the two races of bairdi have been separated by large enough distances for long enough times, then maybe they have differentiated enough to be distinct behaviorally and morphologically in some ways. That's not to say they couldn't intergrade, if put together artificially, or that they are separate species. I wonder if anyone has done that, yet?

TC

hermanbronsgeest Nov 04, 2004 02:07 AM

First of all, thank you Chris for making this discussion worthwhile, this is exactly the kind of input I was looking for.

Like I said before, I know there are many species of snakes which occupie the same area and are also superficially alike Crotalus lepidus. Does this fact make the possibility of Batesian mimicry in Pantherophis bairdi any less likely? We see the same pattern with Coral Snakes, and to a lesser degree also with Lanceheads. To me it sounds reasonable to assume that since predators tend to avoid snakes looking like venomous snakes, natural selection will automatically drive harmless snakes that already share some of the phenotypical characteristics of a sympatric venomous snake, to a degree in similarity as far as it's genetics allows it to. I still remember the gut reaction of a friend of mine very well, a guy who did not have any scientific eduction at all, when he saw some of my juvenile Pantherophis bairdi for the very first time: 'Wow, they look just like Rock Rattlesnakes, don't you think so?' I'd like to think that an equally unbiased racoon or coyote would have a very similar response.

If you'd like to know more about the distribution of Pantherophis bairdi in Mexico, then you definately should look into 'A monograph of the snakes of the genus Elaphe' by Klaus-Dieter Schultz.

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

hermanbronsgeest Nov 04, 2004 03:57 AM

Hello again Chris,

About this 'absence of data' issue you mentioned earlier. You have to agree that the same argument could be used to falsify the assumption of Mexican and Texan Baird's Ratsnakes just being geografical morphs of the same biological species, presented here as a scientific hypothesis, since there is absolutely no proof of that either. Until we find the evidence, it merely is a hypothetical possibility. At this time, based on the (lack of) evidence that actually is available, I just see two distinct looking allopatric kinds of ratsnakes. Wether or not they should be considered different biological species depends on how you define a biological species. If we apply Mayer's biological species concept to the evidence that actually is available, the Mexican and Texan morphs propably should be considered as separate species, until proven otherwise.

Consider this: If one day a stranger comes to you claiming to be your son, wouldn't you like to see the proof of that?

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

chrish Nov 04, 2004 10:16 AM

About this 'absence of data' issue you mentioned earlier. You have to agree that the same argument could be used to falsify the assumption of Mexican and Texan Baird's Ratsnakes just being geografical morphs of the same biological species, presented here as a scientific hypothesis, since there is absolutely no >proof of that either. Until we find the evidence, it merely is a hypothetical possibility. At this time, based on the (lack of) >evidence that actually is available, I just see two distinct >looking allopatric kinds of ratsnakes.

My point about the absence of data was specifically referring to the distributions. You are going on the assumption of allopatry. I don't know (I haven't even seen the range map in the Ratsnake book), but it seems to me that you can't assume the snakes are allopatric unless we have really looked in the intervening areas to determine the extent of the isolation of the Mexican population.
Therefore, my arguement is that not knowing if bairdi occur in between these known populations doesn't make them allopatric.

Chris
-----
Chris Harrison

hermanbronsgeest Nov 08, 2004 04:27 AM

Hello again Chris,

I have to disagree with you here. You say that I am going on the assumption of allopatry. Actually, as long as there are no documented intermediate populations to back up the hypothesis of sympatry and/or clinal variation in Pantherophis bairdi, allopatry remains a fact and the Mexican and Texan populations remain distinct. You claim that the area dividing the Texan from the Mexican populations hasn't been investigated enough to justify the idea that bairdi does not occupy this area. In fact there has been a significant amount of literature regarding the herpetofauna of this particular area. Surely there's still a good possibility that bairdi occurs in this area nevertheless, but at this point this is just educated guessing. Assuming that intermediate populations will be found eventually does not make these populations exist, nor does it make geographical variation clinal, nor does it facilitate gene flow. I am not assuming anything. I just look at the raw data and I draw my conclusions from there.

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

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