Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been emailed from a few breeders that expressed concern about this post. To make it clear so others understand I am posting this. Dragons that are small are not necessarily inbred or unhealthy. Same as their are humans that are smaller in height and weight, but healthy, so are there dragons like that. Some lines are bred for this purpose as it is desired by some owners.

When I was discussing small... I added not thriving. Extreme smallness and failure to thrive is a common factor in inbreeding and I have several we are studying that were donated by breeders that do acknowledge inbreeding to get a high demand trait by the public. They are concerned this is happening, and used the standard inbreeding/outcrossing methods that have worked in other reptiles in the past. They are trying to understand why this is happening in bearded dragons and NOT in other species of reptiles.

Personally I think that the parents they started their lines with were closer related than they thought or others bred in later generations were related to the original parents.

I am adding a picture here of a small, failure to thrive 7 month old dragon that we received. She is 5 inches and weighs 1 gram, eats fairly well and is very active, she has other siblings that are 7 inches - 11 inches and weigh 5 grams to 25 grams, but she also has sibling that weight normal and are 15 inches.

Its the normal sibling that are in high demand due to their colors that will grow up, be bred, but then also produce these smaller failure to thrive babies, especially if breed to another of the same line/color to keep that high demand.

My point was that non professional breeders need to see the other side of this situation and understand that this is a very real possiblity when they want to buy those rarities and be prepared to deal with the results and be responsible to inform others that these offspring should not bred.

Being a small dragon to me means very small and failure to thrive, like the one pictured, not small genetic line.

i was about to say what a cute little baby, until i realized that she's seven months old and the same size as my little hatchling
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python
0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake
1.0.0 leopard gecko
0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa
0.1.0 bearded dragon
1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (on the way!)

she still is cute and lively through!

There is no current influx of bearded dragon lines from outside sources in foreign countries the way it is with the snake world. Top snake breeders know importers like their own brother to get the latest and greatest variations and bloodlines.. it keeps the "gene pool" as fresh as possible.

With dragons, we can't do that and I think that's the biggest problem. I think you're exactly right CheriS... originally all the dragons that were inbred for color and then out-crossed were to closely related to give it the desired effect as far as "gene cleansing".

Again, what I said was an obvious observation.. but I thought maybe it would help some who were not as familiar with the reptile trade on the inside scoop of what's going on.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

Thanks for sharing that Cheri.....the info in invaluable.
Tracey's Beardies

Runts are not just from inbreeding though. I have breed normal parents that to my knowledge weren't related. Most of the babies thrived, one did not. It took handfeeding to keep him alive. He lived but didn't grom for several months. All of a sudden after 6-8 months he has started to grow like a weed. It does happen. But when a normal looking dragon doesn't thrive it probably just dies. Non thriving dragons can be made to grow with much time and effort to some degree. In the wild dragons die all the time from not thriving. Inbreeding probably weakens the gene pool, however when you are talking about an animal that procuces 100 offsrping a year it is natural for many to not thrive. If every baby of a lizard that only produces 4 babies a year doesn't survive then you have a problem. These lizards need to produce all hardy healthy babies. Dragons do not, so they have huge volume of babies. Just my two cents. Average joe schomoe lets the non thriving beardie die, or it dies before they notice it isn't thriving. big breeders may take more notice especially when the offspring could be worth so much more. I think some of it is natural variation and natural failure to thrive and some may be from extreme line breeding but i don't think that is the whole issue at all.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Extreme smallness and failure to thrive is a common factor in inbreeding and I have several we are studying that were donated by breeders that do acknowledge inbreeding to get a high demand trait by the public.

We are not talking about 1 or 2 in a clutch, we are talking about 1/2 of the clutches and later the normal looking ones producing clutches with the same stats and problems...some of these have been going on for a few generations... these are not just small dragons.........

7-8 months and 1-25 GRAM!

The breeders acknowledge they were inbreeding for a rare trait, accidental breedings OR breeding very young when they thought they were normal, healthy, adult appearing dragons.....it happens. Just because two dragons can breed, does not mean they SHOULD breed.

Its something everyone needs to be aware of can happen with some of the rare high demand ones or young dragons that are still growing themselves, certainly not all, but its a fact that there is a lot of inbreeding and early breeding going on to get them.

Ok 50% of a clutch being stunted is very bad. I know that there are 1-2 dragons in some clutches that don't thrive and I think this is normal. These dragons can be kept alive but sometimes don't then thrive. I do acknowledge that dragons that are inbreed are bad, was just stating that inbreeding isn't the only cause of stunted untrhiving babies. Also true not all dragons are ready to breed by 12 months but some are. Alot of people see 18 months as an absolute minimum age, when even at 18 months some dragons are not ready. I just find that to be frustrating.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Hey CheriS wantd to give you an example of a dragon that I produced. He was born June 02. I started to keep records after christmas when my wife gave me a digital scale for Xmas. The Dragon in question is my nice yellow (yellow that I think is better than that of the Sunburst or Sandfire yellow). I plan on breeding him next year if he continues to grow and thrive. If his babies don't thrive I will stop breeding him. To my knowledge he is not the result of inbreeding. Both of his parents are normal and were purchased at the same pet store that gets all of its dragons from a distributor. They were purchased about 9 months apart from each other. So here is a weight record for this dragon from christmas to now.

12/27 17 g
2/22 33 g
4/12 90 g
5/1 140 g
5/30 190 g
6/13 208 g
6/29 240 g

What changed? Nothing. He hatched about a week after the rest of his clutch. At first he didn't eat. I fed him bird food by a syringe, to keep him alive. Then one day he decided to start eating on his own. He wasn't growing, I wormed him still no growing. Then one day around xmas (6 months of age) he decides he is the ultimat pig and increases his weight by 10 fold in 6 months. Go figure. Good luck with the little ones and don't give up on them they are weird little creatures.

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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I keep my clutches which have been around 20 each, give or take a few, in two bins, half in one and half in the other. By the time they are a couple weeks old, I have to do some rearranging. They form a definite pecking order and the difference in a day or two from hatching can make a "huge" difference in their position of hierarchy. By the time they are six weeks old I have switched dragons back & forth several times, keeping the size somewhat close to each other in the given bin.
My first clutch I kept around until 9wks before I started selling them and the size difference between the two bins was incredible.
I sold one of the smallest ones fairly cheap because of his size and the person who bought it said it had almost doubled in size within a few weeks. They named it horse because it eats so much. (still waiting to see pics,,hint,hint)
The reason I believe that happen was because it was taken out of its pecking order (he was close to the bottom) and he was put with other dragons who he dominated and became the top one who is growing like a weed.

So,,, just because some dragons may be smaller than their clutch mates does not mean there is a problem with them, like inbreeding, etc. It can be the individuals place in it's pecking order.

If there are any other signs which would indicate any health issues than there may be something to worry about but size does not necessarily indicate a problem, especially when at such a young age and it's kept in a group environment.

Don't get me wrong, if it's 6 months old and look like a 2month old, there is a problem. I'm talking about young ones.
And I am not saying that inbreeding does not cause such problems. I'm just saying, if you see a small dragon at such a young age,, it does not mean it's a cause of inbreeding or even early breeding. I should have added , I did not allow my female to breed until she was around 2yrs.

Just my opinion,and observations.
Joel R

like to hear your reasoning.

You state he oviously has development problems.. but yet you plan on breeding him? Why? Why even take that risk and continue a potential problem for more generations and sell off those babies to people?

You state his parents come from the same pet store, whether 9 months or 19 months apart, most pet store's deal with one person (distributor) for ALL their snakes and lizards. I know where 99% of the reptiles come from every pet store in a 60 mile radius of us and each is a private breeder with a "few" adults breeders of each species and I can guarantee you, if you breed reptiles bought from the same pet store, they MOST likely are siblings or share at least a father in common.

This is one thing that does really concern me, having no idea of the past line or parentage of the dragons and personally, I think it is the major cause of so many problems we are seeing today........ that is just too risky for me and I do wonder why you would plan on breeding a baby that had ovious problems from the beginning?

This Pet store does not buy from one breeder. I am pretty sure they buy from regal reptiles who blows through dragons at probably 100 a day that he buys from dozens and dozens of people thoughout new england and the rest of the country. This is why i do not think the parents are related. The dragon was a slow starter, however he is doing great now. If I get one clutch from him and the babies don't do well I will not breed him again. If it was an inbreeding problem it would have happened in more than 1 of the 90 babies from these parents last year. I want to try and breed him because he is an awesome yellow. The rest of this clutch is in isarel and doing great.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

How does "Don't even think about it til they're 18 months old" make you frustrated?

You're saying "Sure, you can breed 'em at 12 months".

That's even more frustrating.

How is advising somebody to wait at least 18 months before breeding a bad thing?

You're not even telling them to wait that long.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Ok I hate seeing wait till 18 months for several reasons.

1) Dragon may not be ready at 18 months

2) Dragon could be ready before 18 months, depending on how they are raised

3) Dragon must be healthy before breeding

4) Nothing is absolute about maturity level in dragons or any other species it all depends on how they are raised, male ball pythons can breed in the first six months or it could take them two years

5) Two big breeders have said they do it younger. Vets that coauthor seem to think it is ok in some cases. Vets that breed find it to be ok.

6) To my knowledge there is no concrete evidence that it causes problems

I just really hate when someone says something that is very broad, and it get passed along as absolute truth. In reptile husbandry there is no absolute truth. That is the way it is. I guess to each there own I just like to share my views on things. My views don't always match others. I feel that you can raise dragons on veggies, supers, and pinkies just fine. Know people that have done it with great success never lost a lizard because of it. Do I feed my dragons this way no, but I do know that it is a viable option to people that don't like crickets. Do people on here agree, NO. Is there some risk to doing it there sure is, but it can be limited by limiting the amount of pinkies and supers and feeding more veggies. Why does it frustrate you that some dragons can breed at 12 months safely? Do you think this is flat out wrong? If it is there are MANY people in this industry that are wrong. People that are much more knowledgeable than I, and if they are wrong according to you then I don't think being in the wrong is such a bac thing.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I would like to applaud the fact that someone, namely Derek, has finally aknowledged that there are multiple opinions out there and that none of them are 'correct'. There are no black and white issues involving the care of reptiles - being breeding age, feeding pinkies, ect...
By aknowledging this fact, it shows that you respect other peoples' opinions and experiences.
All one can do is provide factual information and let people make up their own minds...
Kudos to Derek.

Rob & Vickie

Exactly, that's my POINT!

But is it safer to say "Don't even THINK about it til 18 months old" or "Think about it at ANY age" (which is what many of Grimdog's posts imply).

OF COURSE the health, size & other issues are important REGARDLESS of age. But with these taken into consideration, are you telling me it's NOT better to wait til they're at least 18 months old?

I'm not saying any dragon over 18 months old can, will or should breed, I'm saying that it's a minimum RECOMMENDED AGE. A single solitary factor, one of many.

That dragon that Grimdog breeds at 12 months old might've otherwise gone through a growth spurt at 15 months old bringing her up another 100g and 4" in length. It HAPPENS.

So what is wrong with suggesting people wait?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Derek's posts do not imply "any" age when I read them. The implication (to me) was that each dragon should be treated as an individual and it's maturity level determined by its behaviour. Basically, each dragon is different. Some are mature enough to breed at 12 months, and others arent - meaning at 18 months old they STILL may not be ready to breed..

Many females go through a growth spurt after being bred - whether 12 months old, 18 months old or even 2 years old. Dragons continue to grow, although slowly, up until they are 4-5 years old.
So what you are implying is that if I were to breed a dragon that is 12 months old, 350 grams and 17-18 inches long... that it is done growing? Ive essentially, "stunted" its growth by breeding it? Nonsense. When the fact is that many females will continue to grow a sizable amount even after breeding.

One female we have, bred by accident at 4 months old and laid at 5 months old, 200 grams and 14.5 inches long. All of her offspring were healthy and she rebounded with no problems. She is currently in cooldown and weighs in at 385 grams, 18 inches long and 5 years old. I would say, she is an average adult size female. She falls within range of her siblings in size. Did her growth become effected by producing a clutch of eggs? I should say not, as she nearly doubled her weight. This is only 1 example, I do have more.
Would I suggest for someone to purposefully breed an animal this young? No. (But Im sure in the wild they do.)

As Derek points out, many breeders, of many species breed their animals while they are still growing. And for someone to put an actual date/age that is acceptable when there are variances from animal to animal - this is UNacceptable.

If a dragon is 12 months old, of good size and showing signs of maturity, what factual reasoning do you have for not allowing it to breed? Exactly what health risks/factors are you basing your opinion on? I am not saying that you are "wrong" for choosing 18 months of age, but would like to know what brought you to your conclusions.

Rob & Vickie

Great, I'm VERY happy for you that your dragons are continuing to do well, and I don't doubt for a minute that they'll continue to grow after being bred providing they have the correct care - and I'm really not being sarcastic here.

You have some WONDERFUL dragons, VERY healthy, I know people who've bought dragons from you and they really are amazing.

But, for your every day Joe who's bought two dragons at a pet store (usually from the same clutch even if the pet store claims they're not), if sees that some are capable at 12 months he's going think "Well, I'll try 'em at 12 months and see what happens. If they breed they're obviously ready", and he's going to assume that's it.

At least if you tell them to wait another 6 or 12 months (or more), it's going to at least give them more time to research. I still don't see how this is a bad thing.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

and that is why some people still think dog food and monkey chow are good iguana diets. Misinformation is the most dangerous thing to an animals health.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

that then might mess up there dragons and their dragons go into a prolonged brumation. Then at 18 months their dragons are 200 grams because of poor husbandry, poor genetics, illness, or any other reason; but hey dragons are good to breed at 18 months so I should do it. Why not provide the right information that it all depends on a dragons upbringing and overall health than on age. And stop the spread of misinformation?
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

sprea of misinformation, or spread of what I see as misinformation.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I TOTALLY agree with you on this. But wouldn't you rather that all these people who've NEVER had a dragon before spend the extra 6-12 months researching more?

Most people who just buy a pair of dragons at a pet store are told "Sure, stick 'em in a 20 long, dozen crickets a few, a lil bit of veggies... UVB? What's that? No, they just need heat lights", and people believe them. We just received 4 today that have had NO UVB for the last 2 years, the largest is 17" long and weighs only 150g.

Wouldn't you rather recommend to these kinds of people that they wait another 6-12 months and research more? And fix what they're currently doing wrong before they even think about doing the same wrong things to another 10, 20, 50, 100 babies?

That is why I recommend AT LEAST 18 months, not EXACTLY 18 months, as ONE OF the requirements for breeding.

You can't compare these people to those who rely upon breeding as their primary source of income. Most of the serious breeders probably yourself included, have been doing this for years, and have gained lots of knowledge and experience. Those who've just gotten a pair from the local pet store having never had a reptile of ANY kind before don't.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Agree to a certain extent, but the morons that go out and buy a dragon and know nothing about them before buying and/or don't know what they need by one year will not know what they need ten years from know. As they are very irresponsible. The extra 6-12 months will do no good. It doesn't hurt the dragons to wait but it still isn't correct information. Guess we will just disagree on this one.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

The extra 6-12 months WILL do good, because it gives the keeper time (or at least a chance) to correct their mistakes. Or at least attempt to.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

How is it misinformation?

I'm telling them exactly the same thing as you are except that they should wait a few months til they're a little older.

How is that misinformation? How is that HARMFUL to the dragon? How is that such a BAD thing?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Please don't misunderstand me, You saying that 18 months is an acceptable breeding age for a dragon is not a "bad thing" to do. BUT in addition to this, there is also other pertinent information that must be considered.

Quoting ANY age as a single guideline is most likely what the average reader will remember. Neglecting the other information that is necessary for a well informed decision is misleading and may result in poor judgement - due to this lack of information.

People purchasing from pet stores are generally not looking to breed their animals in our experience. But those who eventually make the decision to do so will come to places like this for information. Perhaps they won't ask the correct questions, or enough questions; perhaps they will. I feel it is the responsibility of others to give the best, widest range of information available to help them to make a well-informed decision.

Once again, I'm not saying that you are wrong for offering your advice, as it is good advice to a novice. I would only like to suggest that more elaboration be given to the circumstance/situation. There are just too many variables to rely on age alone.

Rob & Vickie

Oh yes, of course, but with Beardies becoming so cheap and common place these days, you find a lot of 14-18 year olds who've decided they're going to be a "dragon breeder" before they've even picked out a single dragon.

As I always said age is only on factor, and I'm not saying 18 months as a "magic number", just that if somebody is relatively new to dragons, it's going to take them at least that long to start getting things right just caring for the one or two dragons (which they may or may not ultimately intend to breed), depending on the amount of research they'd done before acquiring the dragons.

Which is also why I also believe that males and females should be housed separately unless you truly intend to breed, and know all the potential consequences of breeding (which is a more common mistake).

It's easy to have beardies breed & reproduce. But it isn't so easy to ensure the health of the parents and the offspring, especially for those that haven't had a lot of experience.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Why are you under the impression that once a dragon breeds they stop growing. They don't, they will continue to grow. I know this from first hand experience. This is also true for Leopard geckos, Rhacs, as well as Chams. They will all grow more after being bred.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Yes, and Iguanas CAN, and WILL eat Pizza, Pinkies, hamburger meat, monkey chow, etc... it doesn't mean they SHOULD.

Yes, the dragon's health, size, weight, etc. are VERY big issues, I'm not saying they should be disregarded, but I'm saying that what is wrong with telling people to wait another 6 months or a year before actually doing the breeding?

I've seen MANY dragons (that weren't bred before 2 years old) go through a growth spurt at 15, or 18 months old.

So tell me, what is WRONG with telling people to wait until their dragons are OLD enough?

Yes, it's only one factor, and NOT the only factor, but a VERY important one.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms