Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok...The election is history. Now how about some discussion on how to solve the Iraq situation? (preferably without dragging out ten tons of allready mushed political rehash)

I was torn between this topic and discussing the price of Tulips in Topeka...It was a close choice to make unless you have a budding intrest... (lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Carpet bomb the whole sandbox. It's extreme, but ... I don't know. Muslims are fighting everywhere they are in the world, what can we do ? This conflict was going to present itself to us one way or another. It's actually good that we need to learn how to deal with it one way or another early on. Rather than waiting for a mushroom cloud on our soil. It's a war of cultures and religions that's been going on for a long time, it's now caught our attention because we see them in conflict with their neighbors everywhere ELSE in the world AND they hijacked and flew airplanes into our buildings.
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Thane

I don't know the answer. It DOES need to be considered VERY seriously though (this issue not the carpet bombing).
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Thane

Looking at the present situation and comparing it to such historic occupations as USSR in Afghanistan, The French in Algeria, England in India (and various other places). The track record for countries occupying Moslem nations is not all that grand.

In Iraq we have a situation that is far from settled and has changed from a simple occupation of a country, to an all out religious guerrilla war against those who the locals see as infidels that are a total danger to their faith...infact their very way of living.

That we have established Free elections is considered (by western standards) as proof of the stability of the occupation and evidence of democracy triumphing.

The truth is that what we have built is too fragile to maintain it' self. With out US aid this Democracy will collapse.

This presents the problem. The longer we are there, the more we wil be viewed as invaders instead of liberators, yet if we leave too soon what we have tried to build, will collaspe probably into a secular dictatorship.

We may find ourselves there for as much as a decade or more. But I think in the end, we will not hand full control back to a country at peace. The best we can hope for is to make them strong enough to fight the rebels on their own.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

We can think of it this way. I've never had any experience keeping venomous snakes. I'm told I HAVE to deal with/keep a forest cobra, a black mamba and a taipan. What would be the best way for me to deal with them ? Let them free roam around in my house, put them cages and TRY to learn how to deal with them safely and quickly, or take a garden hoe to them ? We're in the same situation with muslim fanatics. If we had done nothing and let them free roam around in our "house", what would have resulted ? Remember 9-11 ? Maybe that was the mamba hitting us ?
It's a bit of a strange analogy/comparison, but I think it applies in this case. These "people" ARE animals. They will kill THEMSELVES to kill as many of US as possible. They seem to have no problem sawing off peoples heads with their OWN hands weilding a big knife. Cage/contain them. Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out, or let them alone to free roam around our world and hope for the best ? Look what they are doing everywhere else there is large muslim populations. Will they be capable of entering the civilized world ? I don't know. I just think that the sooner you TRY to solve a problem like this, the better. Had we done nothing, I'm pretty confidant we'd have gotten more 9-11 style attacks. We may STILL. Will ANY venomous keeper ever feel confident enough to free handle a taipan ? Should WE try to free handle these peaceful muslim fanatics ? Do you think we may get bit ?
Thanes Place

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Thane

Keep in mind that much of our civilization derives from their influence. They are no more animals than the Christians who burned disbelievers in the name of the Inquisition. The only reason we are different is that the divine right of Kings (whom the churches used to manipulate European rulers was finally brought under control by the emergance of democracy and (ironically)kings like Henry the Eighth of England and others who grew tired of the churches control. Still it wasn't until the seventeen hundreds that European overnments finally completely separate from church control.

But for that change, we are not that different from them.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I disagree. We are VERY different from them. So, we disagree on THAT. Big deal. Back to what I was asking.

They will kill THEMSELVES to kill as many of US as possible. They seem to have no problem sawing off peoples heads with their OWN hands weilding a big knife. Cage/contain them ? Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out ? Let them alone to free roam around our world and hope for the best ? What do you think we should do ? We can argue endlessly about who's evil, who's smarter, who's better. Lets focus on the solution instead. What is your opinion on how this should be dealt with. It was coming to us whether we liked it or not. Sidetracking ourselves takes our attention off the matter. You'd want to have full attention and readiness if the cobra, mamba and taipan were free roaming you house wouldn't you ?
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Thane

Unfortunately you have a choice betwwen eradication or quarentine (limit acces to the US). Our laws however against discrimination would not look kindly on either. Got to run...more later.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I'm starting to think that we may have to willingly relinquish one or two of our "civil liberties" for our own safety for a time. The ACLU even went after the FBI with a lawsuit not long ago when they were trying to stop terrorism during our election process by questioning men of arabic descent. What, was the FBI supposed to look at 75 year old women, black teenage boys and white males too ? Are these people (75 year old women, black teenage boys and white males) likely terrorists ?
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Thane

Include dumpy house wives with blond children and tall Germans ME). That is who they picked to search when I flew out of Dallas Airport.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yeah, they have to search and ban stuff on airplanes now, because we ALL saw how easy it would be for ANY small group of thuggish animals to hijack a plane. So, we lose a little of our freedoms for safety purposes. I personally would have no problem with being searched and checked, because I understand the reasons for it. It IS a source of irritation though.

On certain days I think we should nuke the whole sandbox, other days I'm fascinated by how large populations of Homo Sapiens can justify murder and suicide to destroy one another. I don't want to put MYSELF in the same group as THEM, so I tell myself nuking the "sandbox" wouldn't be good. I wonder what THEY would do, and how THEIR thinking process works, is all. Hopefully, we don't have to de-volve to their level and try to destroy them all. I suspect we'll be forced to though (or something NEAR that). That, or give up and let 'em have us.
Thanes Place

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Thane

... is, that from the present point of view there is no possibility to resolve this problem in the near future.

As much as I was (and still am) against this war it would be a grave mistake to withdraw the U.S. troops now. Yet more chaos and mayhem would be the consequence.

The only half-way promising measure would be to exchange parts of the U.S. army by as much as possible UN soldiers, preferable from muslim nations.

In Iraq we will see a flash point for at least a decade if not for longer. There is nothing that we can do about it.