Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted about this back in Sept. I have a 10 year old female who's never been with a male and is holding 4 eggs. She dropped 3 back in Aug/Sept but none since. Her feeding has NOT fallen off. I kept telling myself that I'd see the vet if her feeding slowed down or stopped, which it never has. What would you do? Thanks in advance.

I'd take her to the vet just to be safe.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I don't want to be a doomsday preacher here, but if she has 4 eggs in her, even if she's acting normal, I think it's eventually going to kill her.

Bacteria build up almost always seems to occur (and often rapidly) with egg bound snakes.

Yep...I agree. It definitely will eventually kill her. If she still has egg masses in her, that means they probably calcified. In that case she will not reabsorb them. Zoo Atlanta just lost it's big female due to this very thing. It may take a year or two, but it will eventually get her if the eggs aren't removed.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Correct me if I'm wrong.. BUT a snake can not reabsorb shelled eggs just follicles.
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The Crawl Space

That's what I said..once the eggs have calcified, they won't reabsorb them.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I was confused by the lingo used. I thought you meant once the shelled eggs calcified, you meant once the embryos calcify forming the shell. They're not considered eggs until they calcify, got it. Thanks
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The Crawl Space

Well, the process of reabsorbtion (follicular atresia) happens after every ovulation. Unfertilized corpora lutea as well as defective eggs are reabsorbed. Once an egg has calcified (once the shell has been formed), it cannot be reabsorbed by this process. Those that are fertile and have calcified detach (involute) from the uterine wall and begin to develop and wait for the signal that drops progesterone levels, which enables the muscular contractions in the uterus to expell the eggs.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I have found that egg binding has occured in the animals I have studied where fecal material in the gut tract blocks easy pasage of the egg. I now do two things that have eliminated problems asociated with egg binding. The first thing is to make gut tract is empty prior to egg laying. Since calsified eggs tend to become adhesive in the ovaduct if left to long I have a 12 hour rule. If there are eggs left in the snake 12 after any eggs had been layed, I will move them down by applying pressure above eggs with my thumb one egg at a time. (like squeezing a tube of toothpaste) VERY GENTLY. If this process is used early on I have hatched egg bound eggs successfully. NOTE: I am a multiple species breeder but this has not been done with eastern Indigo.

Egg binding generally does not occur in the cloaca where there is likely to be remnant fecal material present, but rather the eggs are bound to the wall of the oviduct. Are you saying that fecal material present in the gut is distending the gut enough to restrict the end of the oviduct enough to prevent passage of the eggs? Did you actually find physical evidance that there was fecal material present in the oviduct and that it contributed to the binding of the eggs? Or is this conclusion anecdotal and based on the fact that the snake passed fecal material while you were manually palpating the eggs? What I have noticed is that when the parturition process begins, the contractions within the oviduct that serve to move the eggs toward the cloaca (similar to peristalsis) will cause the gut to be emptied of any fecal matter before the first egg passes. Egg binding also does not generally occur with fertile eggs. Fertiles eggs may, however, be blocked by a bound infertile egg. Egg binding typically occurs because an infertile egg either did not separate from the epithelium during the calcification process (secretory glands within the luminal epithelium secrete the egg shell contributions), or it did separate, but was adhered to the wall by some bacterial infection later in the development phase.

I generally will not do anything at all for at least a week. I've seen normal parturition take as long as five days for the whole clutch to be deposited.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

My comment is based on actual findings and the experience of others, some of who post on your forum. Fecal material is high up in the gut tract.The egg is trying to slide down the ovaduct, the paralel gut tract may have a wad of fecal material that causes the ovaduct to be somewhat constricted. The other party has had this happen with his eastern Indigos. In every instance of egg binding when palpating the egg the paralel fecal material is first to come out.

I doubt seriously that the fact that fecal material is present in the gut is going to cause egg binding, or any difficulty in laying for that matter. I have no doubt that fecal material is evacuated when you are manually palpating eggs, but I seriously doubt that fecal material was inhibiting oviposition. If you palpate any snake like that, eggs or not, you are likely to evacuate the bowel.

I've never seen a case where palpating actually worked on a truly egg-bound snake. I think in cases where eggs came out after palpation, it was really a matter of not waiting long enough...the female probably would have eventually laid them on her own. In cases of true egg-binding, the eggs have either had to be evacuated and removed with forceps or surgically removed. I have seen cases where for some reason contractions ceased before oviposition was complete or was insufficient to move the eggs through the oviduct and into the cloaca. In those cases palpating may help some, but a better option might be the use of Oxytocin or some related drug to increase the intensity and frequency of the contractions.

I have had situations where I could move an egg by palpating it so that it was close enough to the cloaca that I could evacuate it with a hypodermic needle and then pull it through the cloaca with forceps.

I don't consider a snake that has eggs that can be palpated or moved by contraction to be truly egg-bound, though. To my way of thinking true egg-binding is when the egg is adhered to the uterine wall and needs to be mechanically removed.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

A couple months ago I had a big female that was not bred become egg bound with slugs. I applied the slight thumb pressure above each egg & I basically let the snake move along through my hand that had the thumb pressed over the egg. Between each egg there came a mass of fecal material. This snake was eating like a pig but not defacating & as all you Drymarchon keepers know THAT is not the norm with these guys. It's usually like dealing with an 8 lb. Garter snake.

Probably not the most reccomended way of going about things but there are absolutely NO Herp vets anywhere near me. My choice was to deal with this situation in this manner or let her die, my Vet didn't want to have anything to do with it, all they did was take X-rays for me. Said snake is doing fine, she's gained almost all her weight back, her appetite is back to it's normal indigo self.

This is NOT something I'd wish on anybody to have to deal with, Doug Taylor can attest to my stress when I called him on the verge of tears due to this. I still owe ya a bottle of "Newfie Screech" there Dougie

Best of luck with your eggbound gal. Be sure & let us know what happens & how your Vet reccomends you treat her. Lots of us guys (like me) depend on postings on this forum to figure out some of these problems.

Dean

Thanks, everyone. She's seeing Dr. Dahlhausen Mon at 10:00.

The good doctor put her on oxytocin for the near term with recommendations for higher heat, warm water baths, and gentle, VERY gentle, massaging (his concern is tearing the ovaduct) to see if I can get the slugs moving. I'll keep you all updated. Thanks for the concern.

Good move!
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson