Reptile & Amphibian Forums

pix of this snake have been posted here before, i think. jeff brought it by tonight for a photo session.
what is it?
1. I don't know. Not for sure.
2. If I HAD to guess, i'd say it's an extreme hypo, the prettiest, lightest extreme we've seen so far.
3. the other possibility is it's the first of something we haven't seen before--a "lavendar" albino, for ex?
But i think truly new things show up so rarely--(what NEW have we seen in hondos in the past decade--one calico, and a couple handfuls of "extremes", neither of which we're certain about the genetics of yet?) So I figure
a) given the alternatives, when something different shows up it's more likely a variant of something we've seen before, than it is something entirely new. That's certainly open to debate, but it's a premise I choose to start with.
and
b) this animal clearly isn't snow white in the light rings, the way an albino would be. but the light rings DO have that very-pale-gray shade of some of the lighter extremes, so by that logic this one would simply be an even lighter example of the "extreme".

what do you think?

jeff and i discussed it in these terms: Consider the possible variation in hondurans with reduced melanin. Use 10 as an example of a dark original or "regular" hypo, and use 0 at the other extreme, where melanin is eliminated entirely--an albino. We figured this animal might come in at perhaps 1 1/2 or 2 on that scale; some of the lightest "extreme" hypos seen otherwise, have been maybe 3s, or 4s? How would you rate my female that i posted on this forum a day or two? Her head's very light gray, but not nearly so light as this one.

But it does seem to me this animal presents an extension in that paleness, so an improved degree of something we've already seen--the extreme hypo--more so than an albino. Like i say, just my opinion. Maybe that purply-gray is just capillary blood showing thru the skin, and when the skin thickens it'll turn white and the animal will be more obviouisly an albino. But it is a couple weeks old already, i think, it's eaten a couple times at least, so that thickening would have started by now, i'd have thought. It'll be interesting to watch it as it ages.

This animal came out of a pair of triple hets i produced and sold to jeff. Mike Falcon's extremes came out of animals he got from me, though not from triple hets. A line of connection could be drawn there. But it's not something i would have EXPECTED out of the triple hets i produced.

So, a couple pix (and a few more below)

and

peace
terry

here are some body pix to go along with the head pix above

and

and

it's worth adding this is a dramatically beautiful snake whatever it is. the colors are rich, almost neon, and the pattern unusual, with wedges of the light color narrowing on the sides and disappearing before reaching the venter.

peace
terry

I would think albino at first glance, but its probably along those lines that ahve been said here before, extreme hypos are most likely at the top of the hypo line, and the nicest ones, any nicer and they would almost be albinos or eventually lead to ana lbino..?, who knows but that snake is awesome looking, very very nice, I cant wait to see more pics as it grows. Thanks for sharing here,
jeff teel

Jeff I tend to agree with your thoughts and we have talked about this alot. IMO there are MANY paired genes along the chromosome that fall under the hypo-M control. The other thought is that there are ALSO genes that control other portions or scale development and pigment under where the black would be. With many hypo-M breedings now being done and successive generations, have the right combos of all these genes finally "found" each other? Its similiar to the selective breeding guys have been doing for years to breed a line for a specific phenotype. After enough selection the desired phenotype can be achieved. I think sometime in our finite minds we overlook the possibilities because things such as genetics are so more complicated then we can imagine. It is simply awesome to see animals like this pop up because it helps expand our minds and realms of possibilities....THANKS Terry for sharing the pic and your thoughts!!

Matt Woodhall

That has got to be the most beautiful snake I have ever seen.

...and as everyone knows I produced some nice albino hybrids but that snake has something different to offer. Absolutely stunning!

Question. What do we name this now? a super duper extreme albino ??

I've seen this Hondo. B4 and i asked some questions but there was never any response. i now know that the snake was produced from triple het. to triple het breeding. i don't really think this is a "lavender albino" it could be considered but why not Hybino? i mean u had all the "ingredients" to produce albinos, anerys, hypos, snows, and ghost, so why not Hybino? this snake is the prettiest Hondo I've ever seen. Along with the pattern it's price less. it looks like the fusion of a ruby eyed hypo and a tangerine albino, kinda like pink eyes on a black rat or a "paradox" morph. I'd love to know what the rest of the clutch looked like. it would probably be a good idea to hold onto the entire clutch and breed them back to each other. (you don't wanna sell um and have someone else producing something else unusual). just think really light x-tremes go for $1000 so this can easily bring in 3-4G's (since they are much prettier than snows and carry more recessive traits)Please post some pix of the rest of the clutch or give a description.
Keep us posted on this new morph.

~Zenny Felicien

why not Hybino? i mean u had all the "ingredients" to produce albinos, anerys, hypos, snows, and ghost, so why not Hybino?

ZF, the fact that the ingredients existed capable of producing something aren't a strong argument that they DID produce that. I'm just trying to analyze the different possibilities as objectively as possible, to weigh the arguments. IMHO this is really fun, it's like a mystery has been dropped in our laps and we get to play detective, so I think it's important to hear all different ideas.

But crude oil may be an ingredient from which rocket fuel and nail polish remover can be made and probably bubble gum or some other more dramatic example. So just knowing the potential exists in the triple het parents (to get back to snakes!) reminds us of possibilities to be considered, but it doesn't assess the different possibilities.

To assess them, some thoughts:

1) An albino LACKS melanin. Has none. Areas that would be black are snow white, unless and until the snake is one that gains yellow in those areas as it ages.

2) A hybino would be hypo AND albino. If it is homozygous for albino then it should show all the effects of amelanism--that is, all melanin should be ABSENT. Thus a hybino's formerly "black" rings should be as white as an albino's. That is not the case with jeff's snake that we're discussing here. Close, but no banana, as they say, and i can't see any reason why adding the effects of hypo--of further REDUCING melanin--would change an albino so that it showed more (however slight) melanin in an area than would show in an animal that was only albino. So the hybino conclusion just seems illogical to me. Am i missing something?

3) More substantially, here's some hard evidence to consider: I've produced i don't know how many, 20? 30? tangerine albinos that have a 25% chance of also being hypo--thus hybinos. Put another way, 25% of those--maybe half a dozen--probably WERE hybinos, according to statistical chance. Yet none had the look of jeff's snake, all of them were simply white in the rings we'd have expected them to be white in. (NOTE: None of these has yet been proven by test breeding to actually BE a hybino, so it is remotely conceivable that despite the odds, despite the probability, none of them were hybino.) Maybe, someday, we'll learn that hybinos--for reasons I c an't fathom right now--do show slight melanin, whereas albinos do not. But for the time being, that seems a very illogical theory, and more importantly, i think the odds are high that i've seen hybinos, i just don't know which ones yet for sure were the hybinos. And none had the distinctive appearance of this jeff's snake, which suggests to me that jeff's is not a hybino.

I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this issue. As we play detective and try to figure out what jeff's animal is (and what other extremes are, whether they're part of the same issue or represent a different mystery) we'd be helped by either putting to rest the hybino speculation, or coming up with a theory explaining why it makes sense.

this snake is the prettiest Hondo I've ever seen. Along with the pattern

You bring up a good point here, ZF. We need to separate the snake's beauty, and neat pattern, from our efforts to analyze the color mystery, because they really are two different things. There are pinstriped & vanishing pattern hypos on which the formerly "dark" rings form sort of crescents that are widest on the spine, narrow on the sides and never reach the venter, as is the case on this snake. (actually, if you look at "normals" you'll see that same effect on the black rings on some of them, we just tend not to notice). Jeff's snake's pattern is unusual in that those crescents are wider than most on the spine, and as they narrow quickly on the sides they've almost formed pie-shaped wedges. Unusual, but not, i think, part of the mystery here. Also, his snake is gorgeously colored....but is it colored diff in its red and orange rings from all other albinos and hypos? I'm not sure it is. It definitely belongs in the top 5% or so in terms of those colors, but i've seen the same sort of observations about other albinos and hypos: "wow, that orange just glows!" etc. And the very pale purplish gray MAY be enhancing the look of those colors when seen side by side.

So I'd be interested in people's opinions here, about whether or not it's just the effect on the "black" (white?) rings that's important to consider here, or whether there's anything about the snake's other beautiful characteristics that should be considered part & parcel of the discussion.

just think really light x-tremes go for $1000 so this can easily bring in 3-4G's since they are prettier than snows and carry more recessive traits

I think you're right, that the snake might be worth that, for a couple reasons:
1) its sheer beauty, for people who prize that
2) the fact that whatever it is, it is either
a) something new, the FIRST of something, which many people prize
OR
b) assuming it's an exceptional animal at the extreme end of the extreme hypo, it's the BEST of something, also highly prized.

Those are pretty incredible attributes. (the worst case would be if it ages, skin thickens, and it ends up just looking like an albino, then a) and b) above don't apply, and the beauty might be diminished somewhat as well. But I don't think that's gonna happen.

As for the extra genes, that does enhance the animal and its future potential even more. That's one of the reasons i like triple hets so much. If you notice the pic i posted a couple days ago (click on link below) of a tangerine albino from a triple het female, that snake has a chance of being het/hypo, a chance of BEING hypo (and thus hybino) and a chance of being het/anery. That gives the owner a lot more uses than he/she would have with an animal that was "just" tangerine albino.

I look forward to the thoughts & ideas of others. Are you out there, sherlock holmes?

peace
terry
link to pic of nice tangerine albino

Terry,
As you know I have seen this animals in person and all the litter mates. I have also posted pics of the animal in the galary. There is no doubt this is a beautiful animal. When I first saw it I thought lavender albino. But when I saw the rest of the clutch two of the animals showed evidence of the same adnormal coloring and patterning. Which leads me to beleive he produced a high number of Hybinos. Two of them Tangerine and one tricolor. It could also be a T albino I have been told. I do not know a whole lot about T but from what I have been told it would be an animal that show traits of albino like the eyes but the body is not fully albino. Not sure if I was told this correclty. In any case I am sure several of use will be test breeding possible Hybinos this 06 season. I will and I am sure you will Terry. When should have a better idea when animals start hatching later this spring and into the summer months. I am hoping that what Jeff has is not Hybino but a newly discovered morph. For those of you that do not know Jeff Alloway this would be his luck. The guy has HORSESHOEs coming out his butt. Last year this same pair produced 1.1 snow, 2.0 tangerine albinos, 1.1 ghost, and and three possible hets. What are the odds on that? In any case I think this has added some new excitement to the Hondurans. Regards John Lambert

What a very beautiful animal to see. It appears the melanin has been reduced to 5% if that or it is all eliminated and we are seeing what it looks like with the absence of it. Very unique indeed. As you have stated that Extremes would have considerable variation, this one if placed in that category would be a new bench-mark. The eyes appear to be totally without black. Check all your Extremes and compare, these seems to have a different look more like the albino. Terry do you have pics of your Extremes when they were close to this age to compare? I don't feel it is the same to compare with an adult to a new born as you know colors does change with time. Could it be a Double mutation? Thanks for sharing and hope to see this one as it ages. It seems that with triple hets you never know what can happen.

Here's a picture of the eyes on mine when it was about a week old.

It appears the melanin has been reduced to 5% if that or it is all eliminated and we are seeing what it looks like with the absence of it.
Adam, I think you're addressing here what i was trying to say (but perhaps i didn't say it as effectively as you did) about putting melanin in hypos & amels on a 0 to 10 scale: A dark example of the old type hypo has melanin reduced to maybe 90% of what a normal hondo has; good examples of the old hypos still have what, 70%? But now we're seeing lighter hypos--the lightest, we're calling extremes--that have the melanin reduced to maybe 20 to 40% of the amoutn a dark hypo has. And this animal, upon personal inspection and, imho, in the pix, shows it still has a slight amount, the 5% you suggest doesn't sound unreasonable, i'd say 5% to 10%.
(Disclaimer: as noted, the skin might thicken and that slight gray color might turn out to be internal organs, capillary blood, etc., and when the skin's thicker the snake might turn out to be snow white, 0% in those rings, which would make it an amel. But based on the many amels i've seen, i doubt that's the case)

Terry do you have pics of your Extremes when they were close to this age to compare?
sorry, i don't, not that focus on the eyes. (remember too i only owned 2 of my 4 extremes when they were hatchings)

Could it be a Double mutation?
well, the parentage has the potential of producing double mutations. but look at the post i responded to one or two posts higher in this thread, about that issue.

I think you're on the right track with the 5% idea. There are two possibilities:
1) a single genetic hypo morph could throw babies with varying degrees of melanin reduction. All the hypos we're seeing, including even this radically different one, if that's what it is, COULD be variants of the single hypo morph we've had for years.
--this could be based on the individual diffs among ALL hondos--we know some have more red pigment, others are oranger, some have more or less yellow in the narrow rings, some gain yellow over time, others get a lot of black tipping and added melanin as they age, etc., all this is within the normal range of hondos, no special recessive morphs. so the diff we see in hypos COULD be due simply to natural variation in the normal type animals from which the hypos derive.
OR
2) the existing single morph could be modified by the effects of combinations of other genes--bright yellow narrow rings, the ones in the middle of each triad, have not been demonstrated to be a recessive trait, but you probably could line breed to get animals that produced that color pretty consistently...in effect you'd be selecting for a bunch of genes that in combination achieve that affect. That COULD be happening with the ever-lighter hypos we're seeing.
OR
3) we could see multiple hypo morphs, with differing effects--just as there are two or three types of amelanistic california king snakes, with slightly different looks, there could be two (or more) genetically distinct recessive hypo morphs (i'd propose the old one, in this case, might be referred to as "Love" hypos, after their founders, and the new lighter ones as "Falcon" hypos, or more descriptive terms such as "hypo" and, to distinguish the lighter ones, "extreme" hypos)
--i'm told there are examples of genetically and visually distinct hypo morphs in red rats? (and there appears to be this situation with pyros, with the Barczyk and Sentz hypo lines looking very different, but more breeding's necessary before that can be absolutely concluded, imho)
--diff hypo morphs, non-compatible ones, could appear, and maybe one would have the effect of "lightening" or of reducing melanin an average of 25% on the scale we're discussing (maybe the original type hypos would range from 50% to 90% of the melanin a normal has, for ex.) and a diff mutation, the extreme, hypotehtically in this case, might reduce melanin to a greater degree, producing babies with 5% to 45% of the melanin a normal has.
NOTE that in this third possible explanation--that there are two diff and incompatible morphs-- case there are a couple of interesting/challenging consequences:
a) at the "best" end of one type of hypo (remember i'm talking about IF there are genetically incompatible (different allele) hypo morphs) it might be hard or impossible to visually distinguish an animal from a "worst" example at the other extreme of a different morph. So ID could get complicated.
b) IF there are two diff morphs, it already IS complicated, because the "extremes" have come out of mike falcon's line of "regular" hypos so the extremes would be potentially het or homozygous for that morph as well.
c) IF there are two diff morphs that opens the door to creation (which might have already occurred) of DOUBLE-mutations of the two hypo morphs. Theoretically, if one morph reduces melanin 20%, and the other reduces melanin 60%, a double mutation hypo, one that is homozygous for both, would show the combined effects of both rerductions, and thus would have melanin reduced by 80%, for example.

(i originally went into another theory here, but decided this was already long enough--ok, too long!) i pulled that theory and started a new thread, see the thread above titled "a theory on hypo hondo variability"

I don't think there's any test breeding that's gonna quickly resolve these issues, but can anybody suggest paths of inquiry?

other thoughts?
terry

Stunning animal!

I recently had a discussion with an epidermal specialist (Humans!) that does share a common passion for herps, he works with Ball Pythons and was telling me about his analysis of (5) layers of epiderm (skin) of python regius, his preliminary research was done on Hypo also known as Ghost Ball Pythons.

He was scientificaly explaining that these five layers of skin were directly or indirectly influenced with different color and shade of pigmentation. On a Hypo ball python the first and second layers are devoid of any pigmentation with underlying layers giving the colors. He speculated that on the Double-Homozygous ball python, the Caramel Glow (Double-Homo Hypo and Xanthic) the third layer would also most likely be devoided of pigmentation.

On this beautiful Honduran, perhaps we are seeing this hypomelanism mutation influenced on a different layer of epiderm, there is obviously so much more we need to learn, got to love genetics!

Thanks for sharing this beauty with all of us

I recently had a discussion with an epidermal specialist (Humans!) that does share a common passion for herps, he works with Ball Pythons and was telling me about his analysis of (5) layers of epiderm (skin) ...preliminary research was done on Hypo ... Ghost Ball Pythons. ...He was scientificaly explaining that these five layers of skin were directly or indirectly influenced with different color and shade of pigmentation. On a Hypo ball python the first and second layers are devoid of any pigmentation with underlying layers giving the colors.

On this beautiful Honduran, perhaps we are seeing this hypomelanism mutation influenced on a different layer of epiderm

Marc, thanks so much for sharing this, it gives a whole new framework for considering the different hypo 'looks'. Consider:

1) What if we could have lab analysis done and learn that melanin appears in layers 3,4 and 5 on a normal hondo.
2) if they're looking at single layers in the lab, could they tell us if melanin "fills" each layer--in other words, is each layer black, in the areas of black rings on a normal? Or is each layer filled with SOME melanin, which when layered on top of one another results in black to the observer? (thinking in terms of artwork and color printing, is each layer 100% black? or, say, 40% black, so when all three layers are viewed you see black?)
3) What if analysis of a regular hypo showed the melanin was absent in ONE of those layers. And if on an "extreme" hypo it was absent on TWO of the layers? (or reduced, as the case may be)

Imagine the diagnostic tool we'd then have, if it's not TOO expensive. There are plenty of "regular" hypos around, so that baseline could be established.

It would be more difficult with the "extremes" since they came out of the regular hypo line and might show the effects of both types of hypos-.

But this kind of analysis would tell us where the genetic alteration in color occurs, and the nature of the alteration. Does one hypo type elimin melanin in one layer, and the other hypo type elim it in another layer? or two other layers? Or does one hypo type reduce melanin in all the pertinent layers by 40%, and the other hypo type reduces it by 80% (speaking averages, here) in those same pertinent layers? Or....?

Would you like to put me in touch with this person, or would you like to pursue further research? Or perhaps someone on the forum knows someone seeking a graduate studies research topic?

Collecting samples MIGHT be as easy as punching a biopsy-like skin sample that would capture all the layers for analysis. It might be non-intrusive, even on hatchlings. OR it might be something that could only be done on cadavers.

Can you find out more?

peace
terry

Terry, I will pursue this further! Hopefully you will have a pair of extreme for me next summer to push this theory further!

Terry, I will pursue this further! Hopefully you will have a pair of extreme for me next summer to push this theory further!

darn! just as i was writing a note to myself, to remind me to send you a free pair of extremes next year I realized you hadn't signed your post, so i don't know who i'm supposed to send them to. I crumpled up the note.

terry

...It doesn't surprise me at all that it came from a triple het X triple breeding and I think it could be some kind of paradox that sometimes comes from these DH and triple het breedings. It could have some albinism mixed with the hypomelanism to some degree? Whatever it is, it's killer and I like it!!

Where's the genetics professor when you need one? I think you bring up a very valid point. Could it be possible that when recessive geen mutations are stacked up together in one pairing like with triple hets, that some might show up in percentages? If so then this snake could be 90% homozogus hypo and 10% homozogus amelanistic. It's a crazy theroy, but one that makes sense.

Could it be possible that when recessive geen mutations are stacked up together in one pairing like with triple hets, that some might show up in percentages? If so then this snake could be 90% homozogus hypo and 10% homozogus amelanistic. It's a crazy theroy, but one that makes sense.

remember that homozygous means the two genes on a gene pair are the same (two for albinism, for example) and heterozygous means that gene pair has two different genes, one normal and one albino for ex. Given that genes exist in pairs, it's hard to understand how something can be 90% homozygous, or what that even means.

On the other hand you could be on to something, what if the animal's simply homozygous for hypo, but a form of hypo that reduces melanin by 90%, compared to the 40% (speaking hypotehtically) that a traditional hypo might reduce melanin? With that explanation we're still conforming to basic genetic principles, just saying gee, maybe that hypo gene is regulating melanin differently (and more dramatically!) than the "other" hypo gene does.

the simplest explanation for something is usually the better one. I think revising genetic principles and requiring that unprecedented behavior from TWO gene pairs is a stretch--crazy, as you acknowledge. But just bend your theory slightly to the DEGREE OF EFFECT of a morph, and you've got an explanation of what we see in the extremes that (imo) could make a lot of sense.

peace
terry

>>...It doesn't surprise me at all that it came from a triple het X triple breeding and I think it could be some kind of paradox that sometimes comes from these DH and triple het breedings. It could have some albinism mixed with the hypomelanism to some degree? Whatever it is, it's killer and I like it!!

shane, can you tell us anything about the instances where this has happened with other species, so we could maybe get some pix up here and better understand that phenomenon? I hadn't heard of it and don't understand the genetics that could cause it. You also suggest it happens with double hets too--has anyone gotten anything out of double hets that's not predictable by the routine genetics?

terry

I don't know if I've seen this mixing or crossing over of the genes in hondurans, but I have seen it in the boa constrictors. Ralph Davis produced a 'freak' boa from a DH snow X DH snow breeding that has characteristics of albinos, anerys, and snows with different colored eyes all wrapped up in one boa! It's really a unique boa. I've seen anery boas with patches of normal pigments and hypo/salmon boas with patches of anery and or normal coloring. These all resulted from DH and het X dominant breedings. I think you see this more with the boas because of the larger litters(30 ) that occur which allow for more of this gene crossing/mixing to occur, where hondos rarely have clutches over 10-12. Just my thoughts. I find all the genetics involved very fascinating along with the unique animals that are produced!

Lambert e-mailed me those pics a couple weeks ago it was the first thing out of my mouth.
I could be wrong but I would bet it is a extreme hypo and a amel at the same time.
Remember the cool extreme tri-colored hypo I got from him?It was from the first clutch and this snake is from the second clutch so we know he has the extreme gene in there.

Only other thing I could think is that if the extreme hypo is a t albino then you are looking at a double albino here?

later
shannon