Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Continueing on seperating the topics.... a few things I want to say from reading the replys.

1. I am NOT going to feed my snakes rodents! Somone said they wouldn't feed all rodents... I don't know where they got the idea that I even feed rodents at all I DON'T I got garter snakes so I wouldn't have to. If I was OK with feeding rodents I would have got a boa or kingsnake ok? I had gerbils as pets and feel weird feeding mice/rats to snakes. (I don't have a prob. with others doing it I just don't want to.)

2. I like the earthworm deal... I have started a worm bin... and I am trying to raise them. However, I feel I have to feed more earthworms then fish ... Ie about 2 to 1.. is this true? (like if I normally give a snake 10 fish I feel I should be giving them 15 to 20 earthworms... they seem to have less "substence" then fish) How many would you suggest? and plese don't say "as many as the snake will eat" I have a snake that GORGES herself. Give me a range or something 'k?
oh and not all my snakes will eat earthworms... my ribbon does not. (I wish she would) and they "wonder" so if the snake doesn't eat them right away I'll find them (ussally dryed and dead) days to weeks later in a courner of the cage... and I THOUGHT they were eaten. - now if you can show me a container they can't get out of but the snake can get in....

3. Ok I typed in "difference between minnows and gold fish" in the search engin... I didn't find exactly what I was looking for... but I found one page that said that there were lots of different kinds of minnows... and listed CARP as one of thouse kinds.... and then another page that explaned where goldfish came from said they were bred from CARP. Hmmmm.... so to me Goldfish=Minnows Minnows=Goldfish. SO I want to know the difference between Goldfish and Minnows and Rosy Reds. And I want an ARTICAL/WEBPAGE to back it up please.

4. I'm sorry but I really really hate these message boards. Until this place gets a friggen CLUE and gets better message boards... (See Raptureready.com's message boards for an idea what I'm talking about) I do not want to try to search for someone's prior posts. I've done searchs b4 and it doesn't work right. (at least for me) Plus again I want PROOF. I don't want someone say... well I fed my snake goldfish for years and it died like "this" ... or even for months... I want an artical... perferably something like a scientific study by someone... a breeder a vet whatever.

5. Again there should be a way to SUPLIMENT the missing vitimin/mineral whatever. Can I use minor all or is there something else you guys would suggest?

Ok... I have the topics seperate now.

- Sharon

Both goldfish and minnows contain some amount thiaminase. Almost all fish contain thiaminase, an amino acid that breaks down thiamine. The reason mice were suggested is because mice do not have any such proteins that could cause a detrimental situation. I doubt anyone knew about your misgivings. I would try to vary the different fish you give them since you will not feed mice...do not feed all goldfish. Try to give baitfish like shiners or shad possibly. As well, you can supposedly boil the fish and that will break down the thiaminase. Earthworms are a good food source, but I am not sure you want a 2:1 worm to fish ratio in the diet. Worms have a fair amount of calcium but beyond that I do not think they have much to them. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

If you go to the old gartersnake forums here and type in Thiaminase for the search you will find lots of posts. This is not an old wives tale. If you search on Thiaminase and my last name you will also find that a few of my posts link to a site on the effects of thiaminase on mink. It also has a large list of the fish that do and do not contain thaiminase.

I was a "fish feeder" at one point and did have quite a few snakes die from lack of thiamine. I had started my snakes on gambusa from a local pond and also guppies. Both are fine. But as my snakes got bigger I was using goldfish and was giving them breaks by feeding rosie reds in the belief that rosies were fine. I switched species because of size the gambusa and guppies were just too small. Well I did run into problems.

You can reduce the risk but giving the snakes a break from the thiaminase containing fish every so often and always using vitamin B1 supplements. But there is a greater risk of problems than with mice.
Thiaminase problems for ducks

So gambusia actually are good feeders that are low on thiaminase? I would guess that would make sense though...they seem to be the favorite for herps here. I can even find 4 ft water snakes that will regurge about 60 of these "mosquito fish." Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

The nightcrawlers (earthworms) I'm familiar with are the same size as feeder goldfish, substance-wise, and I wouldn't feed any more of those than you do fish.

Earthworms have an excellent calcium/phosphorous ratio and are high in protein--they're an ideal food for herps (they have more substance than most food items, not less).
You might try an idea I haven't seen anyone else suggest yet. There is a company that makes a formed "sausage link" snake food product. Not all snakes will accept it, but many can be scented over (rub a food item they do like onto the new one) to eat it. Here's some information on them: http://www.t-rexproducts.com/Dynamic/Products_list.asp?Subcategory=T-Rex Frozen Reptile Nutrition Series&series=1

This may be an ideal solution to your troubles, if your snakes will accept it. I'd try to avoid the fish for many reasons--thiamin levels, parasite risks, etc. Look at both the garter grub and snake steak sausages, if they won't accept one, they might take the other. It's definitely worth a try.
I'd vary the diet with occasional earthworms or minnows.

Thanks guys! I will check that link out later Brian... can you give me an idea of symptoms in snakes?

WingedWolf: THANK YoU. I thought for SURE they had protein in them... someone said they only calcim in them. Now where do you get your info? I've been trying to find an offical nutrinal list/chart on earthworms... (I've even gone to sites about HUMANS eating bugs... )

- Sharon

There is exactly ONE site that I've found over the years which details the nutritional content of feeder insects and compares them. I hope it never shuts down--it was down temporarily a little while ago, but it's back up again. I'd even recommend copying the the info to save it, just in case.

http://www.michaelthorn.com/cfhs/vet/insect1.html

There you are--compares all sorts of bugs, and earthworms are in there as well.
Earthworms have a whopping 70% protein, and the cal/phos ratio varies according to what they have been eating, but is purportedly usually better than that of mealworms or crickets. IE, if you want higher calcium earthworms, give them some bonemeal. Their fat content is only 13%--they're really excellent food items.

Hi thanks for the site! One problem though:

Quote from site:
"The common earthworm, Lumbricus vulgaris, and its larger cousin, the "nightcrawler," Lumbricus terrestris, are easily acquired for feeding reptiles."

But I am not useing that worm. I am useing what is becomeing popluar (and the only "nightcrawler" I could find that is being sold) the EUROPEON Nightcrawler... which apperently is a different speices: Eisenia Hortensis

Do you think that they would have about the same content? Is there anyway to write this guy? (other then snail mail) I think I'll check on that tonight...
Here are two webpages on the European Nightcrawlers:

http://www.magicworms.com/euros.htm

http://wormman.com/europro.htm

I acctually bought mine from wormman. I feed them chicken mash and coloard greens/mustard greens that I normally would toss. (my bearded dragon wouldn't be able to eat them all b4 they wilt and go bad)

- Sharon

It seems relatively safe to assume that earthworms generally have similar nutrition contents. The European worms are easier to raise in bins, as they can tolerate a higher heat.