Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In response to the post (below) about taking my snakes out into public places:

----start original message----
> Do you scare the crap out of people or are they more interested
> in the snakes. you have to be carefull though as it only takes
> one person to report you and this whole hobby will have another
> nail in its coffin (spelling).
>
> really nice boa, amazing looking
>
> steve
----end original message----

Steve (all),

I definitely try my best to not to scare anyone whenever I take my snakes out. I also do not want to see this hobby suffer any unnecessary black-eyes.

When I took my snakes out to the local park yesterday I made sure to keep my distance from people in an area that was not being used at the time. This was to no avail, as people actually approached me to see my pets - at which point I was more than happy to oblige. I think that is fair and reasonable - if they would like to see, they can come to me - if not, well, they can just keep on with whatever they are doing and we can stay out of each other's way without incident.

Generally, I've found that adults are the ones who are most likely to be the scared ones. Children usually aren't very afraid unless they've been taught to be. To that point, most kids seem to think snakes are 'cool' and want to hold them, while their parents think, at best, snakes can be cool to 'look at'.

It seems that nowadays there aren't many people left who are very afraid of snakes. Granted there are still so many (which, to me, will always be 'too many'), but I think they're getting to be fewer and further between. This is probably because it's not all that uncommon anymore for a person to have a pet snake. It's just not so shocking anymore. People have a natural tendancy to fear what they don't know - now it's not surprising at all for a person to at least know someone who has a pet snake. There just isn't the same thrill in it anymore - which I believe is a good thing. Get rid of the shock and the thrill and the exoticness of it all, and the fear and cautiousness and apprehension should go with it, as people become comfortable and educated about the realities of keeping a pet snake.

Of course I realize some just are beyond help. I know this very well. You see, one of my roommates is absolutely paranoid of snakes - and that may be an understatement, believe me. The good thing is that she can see that I am very careful and responsible about keeping them, and I make every effort to respect her position (whether or not I personally feel it is unfounded). She hasn't complained, not even once. She has actually expressed a modicum of interest in getting over her fears - which I told her I would be happy to help with whenever she is ready.

I think I'm starting to rant a little - sorry about that. I just want to let you know that I do my best to be a responsible keeper.

Thanks for reading,
- Mark

P.S.
If I were to get "reported" - just what is it that I would be getting reported for?

Thanks for your reply, yes being respectful of peoples space is a good thing, the only thing Im worried about is if these COOL parents that say one thing and then report you when they get home. I think you would get reported for having a dangerouse animal in public. there are many ways they could describe you and your snake im sure, and they can even be false but still it brings up the BAD snake thing all the time.

having a dangerouse animal near children
and exotic snake scares locals
cruelty to animals
scaring the locals

what if it bit a child, you would really be in trouble then, especially in America, that would be the end of you with all the extra lawyers you guys have that jump on anyting anywhere.

just my thoughts

steve

You're right - people may say one thing to me and then go home and call the cops on me. I have little to say to that but I refuse to let my life be manipulated by hipocrites/liars. I know that sounds harsh, but I hold myself to higher standards than that and expect the same of others (I know, I know, usually to my own loss).

Should I continue on to make the case again about dogs and other pets being 'dangerous' animals? I believe everyone here understands this - I don't want to bore anyone.

Of the possible plausible things a person might report, I'm curious - how would taking my pet snake out to the park possibly be construed as 'cruelty to animals'? And I think that the daily robberies, stabbings, and gunfire are something more to 'scare the locals' than my pet snake. I'm not arguing with you or trying to start anything - just taking this opportunity to point things out to others who may be reading.

Lastly, if my snake ever bit a child it would be superficial as we all know most snake bites are (especially compared to dog bites). Yes indeed, it would cause quite a stir with the parents - and this upsets me very much. Does this mean I can never let anyone, any child, hold or pet any of my snakes? And if so, does that mean that dog owners shouldn't be allowed to let anyone, any child, pet thier dogs? I really hate to beat this subject to death - I wish I knew how to get people to turn around and see that snakes aren't evil creatures.

- Mark

Yes I get what your saying, really, there are dogs on the street that could kill you if they so desired. BUT because of the stupid laws that are in place right now we have to obey them, even if we dissagree. I took a 4 foot burmese to high school for al talk I had to do for english class. The whole class loved it but ONE girl was on edge all the time, and another girl decided to wave the shedded skin in the face of this other girl. anyway I was in the school office with the girls mother and an embarassed headmaster, its just not soo common with the snakes right now, but maybe one day, I wouldnt try and prove your point too much as you know if a DUMB lawyer got involved because you traumatised someone, you would never hear the end of it. do you get me lol, ramble ramble.....the bit about cruelty to animals could also be pushed because all they would have to say is that an exotic snake being taken outside, out of its environment and scared by the neighbourhood people (just an example)...you see my point.

Good luck anyway and I hope someday this will be just another animal that is on show,,,,I wouldnt do it personally, I dont really like showing all the wifes family the snakes, i get a little shy doing it lol...

take care

steve

>>P.S.
>>If I were to get "reported" - just what is it that I would be
>>getting reported for?

A number of communities have laws against publicly displaying snakes or large lizards. Generally speaking, they are considered dangerous animals and I think the wording is something along the lines of displaying a potentially dangerous animal.

Regardless if we consider our pets harmless or not, we do not have the right to invade other people's space with them. There are still MANY people who are terrified of snakes and it is with them in mind that the laws are made.

Raven

..

.

There is a major difference, the dog is restrained.
- Eric

how people walk around with snakes they don't know on there necks it is kind of dumb. Put the thing in a bag.
-----
Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Dumb comment.

A snake is not going to fly out of your hands and attack someone. The person would have to get up close to you, within striking range, which is no different than getting within biting range of a dog on a leash.

I don't particularly think it's a great idea to take big snakes out in public either, but at least you ought to make an argument that makes sense.

You are absolutely right - we do not have a right to invade other people's space. Which is precisely why I chose a public place to let them get a good stretch and some sun - instead of anyone's personal space.

I am in no way trying to argue with you, as I do agree with you in one respect. But I just have to say that I feel things are unjustly weighed against people who keep snakes. For example: why don't people keep thier pitbulls in cages? I have neighbors with several pitbulls of various breeds that are trained to fight (and this is not hidden at all). Any one of those dogs makes me very nervous - and with GOOD REASON, it's not just some unfounded fear I have. To that point, even my sister's golden retriever can't be trusted to the extent I trust my snakes - her dog HAS bitten me, and on several occasions (granted the dog is just hyper & overly playful, but it still stands).

Raven, how do you feel about taking snakes out in public? And do you ever?

Just curious.

>>Raven, how do you feel about taking snakes out in public? And do you ever?
>>
>>Just curious.

Personally, I don't condone taking snakes out in public places. Have I ever taken my snakes outside? Yes. When my ex-husband & I had a house, I regularly took my snakes into my back yard for a little sun and stretching out in the grass. When I lived in an apartment after that, I would take them outside there as well. However, I worked an odd schedule and made sure to take them out early enough in the day that most people in my section were at work. Also, I was in the very back of the complex and did not take them around the other apartments. And yes, I occasionally had people come up and ask questions about them then. I also found people who were deathly afraid of them who blanched at the very sight of my boa. These days I don't take them out at all because where I live doesn't allow exotic pets. I'm not about to give up the animals that I've kept for 12 years, so I am very low key.

Ultimately for me it comes down to the fact that I am not going to push my beliefs on the public at large. Just because I own and love snakes doesn't give me the right to go to public places where other people are and force my pets on them. It's those actions that give us all a bad name in the public eye. It isn't that I don't believe in educating the public, I just think there are better ways to do so than subjecting people to an animal that they fear. And let's face it, far more people fear snakes (unfounded or not is irrelevant) than fear dogs. It's one thing if a person goes to a place where they KNOW a snake is going to be displayed rather than going to their local park and being taken by surprise by one around someone's neck. No, I don't think the double standard with dogs is fair, but there are leash laws to help protect the public. If you don't report violaters of leash laws, you aren't doing your job. As I mentioned above, many communities also have laws against the public display of snakes and large lizards. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not as long as they are on the books. Would I like to see those changed? Heck yeah! I just think we herpers need to be respectful of others, including their fears.

Raven

I think it's rediculous to expect me to keep my favorite pets stuck in a cage. When the weather's right I can't wait to take a snake or two out for a walk in the neighborhood. While I'm walking my neighbors pass by with their dogs and even ride by on horseback. Now don't you think a horse has the potential to do more damage than a five foot passive boa? I'm proud to say I live in New Hampshire where our state motto is "live free or die." In this state I take my liberty and freedom very seriously and if ever there's any talk about banning reptiles or what have you all hell is going to break loose.

No one is saying to just leave them in a cage. Get real. It's a matter of respect for other people. Are you the only one who has rights? There are a lot of behaviours that are prohibited in public, not just the display of potentially dangerous animals.

I've said my piece, I'm through with this thread.

Raven

I feel very strongly against having to hide our animals away from the public. My wife and I often take a few of our medium sized snakes to the beach, public events such as free concerts or fairs. I can't tell you how many people I've shown NOT to be afraid of snakes. Usually the adults start with, "can my kids see your snake?" By the end of the typical question and answer session the adults are touching or even holding them too. I feel the majority of the people out there are afraid of snakes until they are allowed to actually experience one up close and realize they are not all venomous demons. I see a marked difference in people's response to my animals in wealthy areas where a higher level of education is the norm compared to poorer areas with less educated population.
I don't condone taking huge 16 foot retics or burms out in public because this is just asking for trouble but I feel if enough discretion is used we are better off letting the public know our animals are actually safer than the average large dog being walked down the street. The public's ignorance and misconceptions of snakes is much more dangerous than anything to our hobby. We need to become more involved educating them NOT squirreling our animals away in hiding.

I completely share your sentiments against having to hide our pets. I've also had a number of similar experiences where people quickly loose thier fear with a little Q&A session, and a chance to 'touch' a real snake - to see it actually ISN'T a demon monster. I don't know that I can agree on the relationship between wealth/poverty and the general public's acceptance level of snakes - but then, I probably just haven't had that experience yet (I'll be sure to try and take note of it in the future).

I'm not going to hide my snakes any more than my neighbor is going to hide his/her pitbull, cats, rabbits, ferrets, etc. I'm all for education!

I don't know the corresponding law in the U.S. but in Germany boids are regarded as dangerous animals in accordance with the law, no matter what size they are.

There had been two such events in my hometown:

A guy visited the local funfair with his 5 ft burmese python around the neck. The animal has been seized by the authorities.

Same happened to a guy who was at the main station with his boa around the neck. He had bought it an hour ago in a local pet shop.

There are people who are scared to death when they see a snake. And one has to respect this. A phobia is a disease that can not be healed by a shock therapy. On the contrary.

By the way, not all boids are glad to be dragged out of the vivarium and forced to attend a funfair or the beach with a lot of people around. Some animals may react with stress and try to escape or bite.

I think going into public places with boids is a lack of responsibility. What would happen if the snake escapes?

Just an example: Several years ago someone brought his kaiman (I don't know the english word for it, but it's a small crocodile) to a lake where a lot of people go swimming. The kaiman escaped and the lake had been closed by the authorities.

It took two weeks of searching with a hundred police officers and dogs until the animal was caught. Altough specialists claimed that the kaiman don't poses a danger to the people the authorities reacted this way.

The owner of the animal is still paying the costs for the action.

As a side note: A psychotherapist once told me, that the fear of snakes has something to do with penis fear.

In males it means that they are latent homosexual and they are afraid of it.

I don't know if Freud and his colleagues are right *LOL*
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

-----
Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I take it you are not from around this way? I would like to know more about the laws and regulations from other places.

As far as I know, there is only one city in New England (USA) that has an outright ban on ownership of any type of reptile. Even there, people practically completely ignore the law - which can be seen as you drive through and spot people walking around with boas around thier necks, pitbulls (also illegal) at thier sides, etc. Other cities may have restrictions, but nothing to the extent that makes it a criminal infraction to own a reptile. Massachusetts in general has a requirement that any boid 10'+ requires a permit to keep - but that permit is reasonable and requires that you prove you are capable of keeping the animal responsibly - a practice I wholeheartedly agree with. I've seen people in New York City walking around with 10' snakes for entertainment - charging $5 for a picture with the animal. I'm not sure what the laws may be there, but...

I completely respect a persons fears, as I have my own, as does everyone - which is healthy. A phobia on the other hand is a problem, to both that person and myself, as it imposes unreasonable restrictions/pressures on each one of us from something that can and should be treated.

P.S.
Your psychotherapist (or whomever you are sourcing) is a homophobe.

We are not allowed legally to feed a live mouse to a snake, and here's the stupid part, its not because its considered cruel to the mouse, its so the snakes donsn't get bitten....and what makes this soo stupid is that I know for certain that no one gives a damm about my snakes getting bitten, especially no one in the authorities lol.

Another dumb law.

I'm on the mouses side....(mouses, hows that spelt. mouse's)

steve

-----
Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

If you take your snake out in public in Memphis, Tennessee, there is a $100 fine for the first offense. A friend of mine took his baby BCI to a park last year, and was written up by a police officer (who also escorted him home in his squad car).

What is the world coming to?

Well written post Herman.

Raven

IF (notice that says "IF" i remember correctly from my abnormal psych class, fear of snakes is a learned fear. however, fear of arachnids is not (when it is present)...

of course, i could be completely off... that was 4 years ago.
jb
-----
Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

I have yet to take abnormal psych, but hermann (or whoever it was) that said phobias/fears can't be overcome by shock therapy is wrong, at least according to the AP psych test and PSY 301 @ the University of Texas at Austin.

Phobias and disorders such as OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) are treated now not by discussing them and their possible psychological roots a la Freud, but by forcing the person to confront it. Please, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong about this one. Thanks. -Whit

P.S. If however, you meant electro-shock therapy and not confrontation, the previous poster would be correct. Electro-shock therapy is now only used to treat severe depression.

Such phobias are not treated with a shock therapy but with measures to lower the grade of sensibility of the patient by slowly confronting him/her with the object of his fear.

That means: gradually. Not by shock.

I know this because I was asked by a psychotherapist who has had a patient with a snake phobia if we could somehow manage this.

In this discussion I learned about the opinion in the psychoanalysis that the fear of snakes has something to do with penis fear.

I don't know if this is correct or not and honestly I don't care.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

By shock therapy, I mean exposing the person to what he/she is afraid of, not ELECTROshock therapy.

As for psychoanalysis, freud was a brilliant man who started psychology on the road to becoming a science, but many if not almost all of the theories put forth by him and the school of psychoanalysis have been proven wrong. Whether or not a fear of snakes stems from a fear of being latently homosexual has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that ophiciophobia (fear of snakes) is treated by exposing the patient to snakes - effectively shocking them. If you've ever seen the reaction, the patient does tend to go into shock the first time or so - until s/he recognizes that the fear is irrational and overcomes it.

Unfortunately I don't have long to make this post, but I have one thing to say. If all 'potentially' dangerous animals must not be displayed out in public than the streets should be empty. Let's face it, HUMANS are THE most dangerous animals on earth. As for the ridiculous laws that are placed on our animals more than most other animals, please check my 'signature' at the bottom of this post. Take care (from a proud and public snake owner), Scott Sullivan. P.S. Anyone that brings a caiman to the local pond has no right owning any animal.
-----
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.
But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
—Martin Luther King Jr