Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,

Got a question. I have seen many people on this forum say that feeding feeder fish to hognose is a bad idea because feeder fish contain parasites. Is there any evidence that a fish parasite can successfully inhabit a reptile? Thanks for your comments in advance.

Scott

Im not exactly sure. I know they can be very bad for turtles, but that may be more due to their incomplte nutritional value than anything else. I wouldn't feed feeder goldfish to anything anyway, they are a really bad staple, even without the parasites.
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
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0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

Scott,

I'm not going to get into Parasitology in-depth, however, I can tell you that most parasites go through many life stages and require an intermediate host. This is true of the flukes (Trematodes), tapeworms (Cestodes), roundworms (Nematodes), etc. Once the ova of a parasite are ingested, these larvae hatch and live inside an intermediate or paratenic host until they grow to more mature larval stages. The larvae of parasites usually do not inhabit their final host until their third (infective) or fourth larval stage, and they later become an adult inside the final host. Even if the parasite is host specific singular reptiles, it is absolutely possible (and probable) that the fish will be the intermediate host and therefore harbor the larval stage of the parasite. Below is an example of a generic life-cycle of a parasite:

Ova in feces/in environment

Intermediate host consumes ova

Larval stage 1

Larval stage 2

Larval stage 3 (Infective)

Final host ingests intermediate host

Larval stage 4

Larval stage 5

Mature

Adults reproduce

Keep in mind that the same scenario is entirely possible with other prey items which may harbor parasites as well including rodents, anoles and amphibians (most notably). Almost anything may have the role of intermediate host. This is why it is imperative to feed f/t to your pet reptiles and perform routine worming. There is much more involved to this process than what I have written, but hopefully you get the idea.

Jennifer

Jennifer,

Thanks a bunch! The only reason I asked the question is that I have found rosie red minnows to be an excellent starter for difficult feeding baby hogs. I have tried all the tricks of the trade and sometimes Rosies are the only thing that will get them going. It usually only takes one or two feedings to get them started on pinks. So if I understand you corectly it might be okay to feed them (not as a long term staple) if they are F/T? Also one more quick question. Do you know of any online place to get panacur or flagyl that does not take a vet prescription. I am experienced in worming but no vet will just right a prescription. I have gone to Mexico before to get it but that was a few years back. It is funny I can buy Viagara online without a prescription but not a reptile worming medication! Had the same problem recently with kitty antibiotics. Vet wants to charge 75.00 a pop to give the same antibiotic to 5 kitties. Not good times for a person who works for a not for profit.

Thanks again,

Scott

Scott,

I would definitely recommend freezing the rosies first... for a minimum of two weeks. The chances of the rosies containing viable parasite larvae after freezing are almost nil. If this is done, I would say that starting your babies on rosies is not a problem at all, especially if you do switch them to rodents after a couple of feedings.

***Do you know of any online place to get panacur or flagyl that does not take a vet prescription?***

Try an over-the-counter (i.e. sold in most pet stores) wormer such as RidWorm or ParaZap. I have had success with RidWorm and although I have not yet tried ParaZap I have heard good things about it and it is all-natural. If you can't find either one of these in a pet store, I know they are sold online.

Have you done a gross examination on the feces of your animals? Look for the presence of proglottids (gravid sections of adult tapeworms) and adult parasites of any type in the animal's waste. If any of these are present, worm the animal immediately as this is obviously a positive infection.

In addition to the gross examination, I would highly recommend having a fecal done on your animals. You could even do a direct smear at home with any decent microscope if you do not want to foot the vet bills. Take a fleck of fecal matter slightly larger than the size of a penpoint, place it in the center of a microscope slide and add one gtt of distilled water. Mix the feces and distilled water on the slide until you have about a dime-sized amount of the mixture, then cover with a coverslip. View the slide on the 10X objective and scan for the presence of ova. They will be very distict, circular or ovular shaped eggs with defined walls and single or double operculum. Identification is not as important in this instance as determination of a positive infection as most wormers on the market are broad-spectrum and will treat many types of commonly found parasites.

I say to do the fecal because there is no need for the reptile to undergo the stress of treatment unnecessarily. If the animal IS positive for infection, administer the initial treatment and then do a follow-up dose around three weeks post. After completing these treatments, wait roughly another two weeks and then do another fecal to make sure the animal is indeed free of parasites.

One last note... I would personally regard every animal that has consumed live rosies as having a positive infection. I do this with any Eastern I receive, wild-caught or captive-bred, that I know has eaten a live toad.

I hope this information is useful to you. E-mail me if you'd like for me to walk you through the procedure.

Jennifer Webb
(Jungle Gems)

Jennifer,

Thanks for all the great advice. I will definitely look into the over the counter stuff first. I have examined the feces of the animals and haven't really seen anything that resembles what you are talking about. Two of my baby easterns were started on live toads though so I assume they will have parasites. I also have 2 baby westerns that were fed rosies for 3 feedings. They were dead but not frozen long so I assume they will have the same. I usually don't have a problem taking them to the vet but the collection is pretty large (10 westerns, 4 easterns, 2 southerns, 3 tricolor) and I usually don't take them unless it is something I can't do. I used the risworm years ago when I had pythons and it seemed to work good so I will try that again. I use to use Flagyl on wild caught kings but the dosage has to be correct or there can be a big problem...which I am sure you know. Anywho thanks again for all the help. Nice to see there are people on this forum who ewill give advice and not just argue back and forth.

Thanks,

Scott

P.S.-Just to clarify, I DON'T USE VIAGARA.......just all of the e-mails I get seems it is easier to get then pet meds! Don't know why I felt the need to clarify that. : )

You wrote........"I would definitely recommend freezing the rosies first... for a minimum of two weeks. The chances of the rosies containing viable parasite larvae after freezing are almost nil.".......

There are a lot of conflicting anecdotes when it comes to freezing. I can't think of a beneficial parasite (for the host), but I do believe that parasite treatment (=introduction of poison) isn't always necessary. I don't like to put DEET on my skin, but I do weigh benefit/concern. Where to draw the line??
Shane

P.S. A friend of mine went on an academic trip to Guyana last summer. He (among others) was doing field research, but there was a parasitologist in the "group." The parasite guy was apparently unfamiliar with the reality of extended field life. For some reason (I forget the details), the parasite guy went along for an extended field excursion (less than a week). He became very weak due to dehydration. The reason he wasn't drinking adequate amounts of water is because the water came from natural sources. He was scared of the parasites! When he fell, he still wanted to refuse the water (I imagine it was lip-service at that point). The water was properly (not in his mind) treated. Everyone else was well hydrated.
I had to laugh at that account. Shane

An item to keep in mind is that amphibians are usually good parasite vectors for other predators (such as birds).
Additionally feeding frozen thawed fish can cause thiamine deficencies in the consuming animal if this is a major part of the diet.

Ed