Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am getting this Watersnake in December. I'm told he's a long term captive, origininally from one of the Carolinas (can't remember if they said NC or SC). It doesn't look exactly like the Northern Water pics I've found online. Are there different subspecies or varieties of Northerns?

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Lyns Lair
WNY Herpetological Society

0.1 Cat (Mia)
4.2 Ferrets (Wolf, Shadow, Verdell, Sullivan, Boo, Peach)
2.0 Rats (Inky & Oy)
1.0 Carpet Python (Bear)
1.0 Malagasy Blonde Hognose (Wilbur)
1.0 Malagasy Giant Hognose (coming soon)
1.0 Yellow/Everglades Rat Snake (Pumpkin)
1.0 Russian Sand Boa (Fang)
0.1 Normal Corn Snake (Mysty)
1.0 Anery Corn Snake (Suezo)
0.0.3 Eastern Milk Snakes (Uno, Dos, Tres)
1.0 Ball Python (Slytherin)
2.0 Smooth Green Snakes (working on names)
1.0 Northern Water Snake (coming soon)
1.0 Taiwan Beauty (coming soon)
0.1 Golden Greek Tortoise (Sunshine)
0.2 Mississippi Mud Turtles (Squirt & Shyanne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Norbert)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Moose)
0.0.1 Mountain Horned Dragon (Tiramasu)
0.1 Oustalets Chameleon (Cera) coming soon
1.0 Whites Tree Frog (Trevor)
2.0 Solomon Island Eyelash Frogs (Chompy & Gimli)
0.1 American Toad (Bump)
1.0 AFT Gecko (Cocoa)
5.5 Leopard Geckos (Trouble, Scooter, Simba, Firenze, Teddy, Mystique, Freckles, Dotty, Zipper, Twister)

Hi there:

Yes, there are different varieties and subspecies of Nerodia Sipedon. I can't exactly tell you what species the one pictured is, as its color is very unusual. Two examples of Northern counterparts are the endangered Lake Eerie water snake, and the copperbelly water snake, which I haven't heard anything about in years. It could be any of these. I can only narrow it down to either a Northern or a subspecies. It is definately NOT a brown water snake, green water snake, diamondback water snake or any of those. I hope this helps. I'll do some image searches on Google for similar snakes.

By the way... A Taiwan beauty? WOW! Now that is an AMAZING snake. I am about to get into something really unusual and challenging... I have ordered a mud snake!
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 mud snake
1.0 brown Anole
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
1.0 South American caecilian (Dermophis occidentalis)
1.0 Spanish ribbed newt
1.0 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
1.0 dwarf peacock day gecko
1.0 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
1.0 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
1.0 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
1.0 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
1.0 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.0 Western hognose snake
1.0 fire salamander

Hi Dave,
I don't see your Pygmy Chameleons in your sig, did you sell them? I don't know what a Mud Snake is, post pics when you get it if you can. Sounds interesting. Yeah, I'm getting 3 new snakes in December, the Water Snake, a Taiwan Beauty, and Giant Malagasy Hog. I will admit I'm most excited about the Hog. As for the Water, I was surprised when I saw the pic, the pattern didn't look like the Northerns I'm used to around her. I figured maybe just cuz he's from farther South that they look different. Good luck with your Mud! Maybe you'll bring him to one of the meetings so I can see him.

Malagasy Giant Hog

Taiwan Beauty

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Lyns Lair
WNY Herpetological Society

0.1 Cat (Mia)
4.2 Ferrets (Wolf, Shadow, Verdell, Sullivan, Boo, Peach)
2.0 Rats (Inky & Oy)
1.0 Carpet Python (Bear)
1.0 Malagasy Blonde Hognose (Wilbur)
1.0 Malagasy Giant Hognose (coming soon)
1.0 Yellow/Everglades Rat Snake (Pumpkin)
1.0 Russian Sand Boa (Fang)
0.1 Normal Corn Snake (Mysty)
1.0 Anery Corn Snake (Suezo)
0.0.3 Eastern Milk Snakes (Uno, Dos, Tres)
1.0 Ball Python (Slytherin)
2.0 Smooth Green Snakes (working on names)
1.0 Northern Water Snake (coming soon)
1.0 Taiwan Beauty (coming soon)
0.1 Golden Greek Tortoise (Sunshine)
0.2 Mississippi Mud Turtles (Squirt & Shyanne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Norbert)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Moose)
0.0.1 Mountain Horned Dragon (Tiramasu)
0.1 Oustalets Chameleon (Cera) coming soon
1.0 Whites Tree Frog (Trevor)
2.0 Solomon Island Eyelash Frogs (Chompy & Gimli)
0.1 American Toad (Bump)
1.0 AFT Gecko (Cocoa)
5.5 Leopard Geckos (Trouble, Scooter, Simba, Firenze, Teddy, Mystique, Freckles, Dotty, Zipper, Twister)

Hi there:

So, you are entering the world of enormous colubrids? You are about to have the time of your life! That Taiwan is beautiful and HUGE! So is that hognose! As for the Pygmy leaf chameleons, none survived. I kept them in a moist, cool vivarium with low light, and offered them fruit flies, pinhead crickets and other small bugs like aphids.. I misted them a lot with bottled spring water. I did what the care sheets said, but something bad happened.
All of the little guys started to shed. I raised the humidity even more, and in about a week, none of them were shedding. So, I went to Markheim's and I got some Reptile shedding-aid, and very gently rubbed it into their skins. They still couldn't shed. I raised the temperature and set up a drip system, but none of them survived. Too bad. At least I have pictures. I heard that even in the wild these guys have a really short life span.

I might bring the mud snake, but they are pretty delicate. They're really large aquatic snakes from the Southeastern U.S.A. that are rarely seen. They are glossy black with vivid red stripes and small heads, with spines at the ends of their tails.

Good luck.
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 mud snake
1.0 brown Anole
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
1.0 South American caecilian (Dermophis occidentalis)
1.0 Spanish ribbed newt
1.0 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
1.0 dwarf peacock day gecko
1.0 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
1.0 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
1.0 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
1.0 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
1.0 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.0 Western hognose snake
1.0 fire salamander

Thats a curious looking Nerodia. Looks like a hybrid to me. Fasciata and N. sipedon? I hope you can post more pics, especially ventrals when you get it.

Howdy,

That's an interesting looking water snake. I can't really say what type it is for sure but the pattern reminds me of a Florida green, which does exits in S. Carolina (though they are normally green and heavier). According to Tennant (Snakes of North America, 2003) the other Nerodia in the Carolinas are Northern (N. s. sipedon), Midland (N. s. pleuralis), Carolina (N. s. williamengelsi), Red-Bellied (N. e. erythrogaster), Banded (N. f. fasciata), and Brown (N. taxispilota).

There are no subspecies of Northern (N. s. sipedon) as the Northern is it's self a subspecies of Nerodia sipedon. I am not awair of any major pattern variations of N. s. s. but that's not to say that they don't exist.

My guess would be abberant Northern or perhaps a Northern/Green cross.

It's a pretty snake. what ever it is.

Good Luck.
Cam
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"I'm tired of being a wannabe bowler! I wanna be a bowler!!"
-- Homer Simpson

Thank you very much for your replies. Do all of the species mentioned above; Northern (N. s. sipedon), Midland (N. s. pleuralis), Carolina (N. s. williamengelsi), Red-Bellied (N. e. erythrogaster), Banded (N. f. fasciata), Brown (N. taxispilota), and Florida Green eventually turn into a solid dark color? I know the Northerns around here start out banded, then turn pretty much solid brown. So if this fellow was a Long Term Captive I would think if he was pure Northern he'd have lost his pattern by now. If any of the above species don't lose their pattern in adulthood that might be another clue? And yes, I'll post more pics as soon as I get him home, probably the 2nd week in December. And I can get some ventral shots too if that helps. I do not know how old the picture I posted is. Perhaps he's lost more pattern now if that photo is old. Thanks again for your help!
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Lyns Lair
WNY Herpetological Society

0.1 Cat (Mia)
4.2 Ferrets (Wolf, Shadow, Verdell, Sullivan, Boo, Peach)
2.0 Rats (Inky & Oy)
1.0 Carpet Python (Bear)
1.0 Malagasy Blonde Hognose (Wilbur)
1.0 Malagasy Giant Hognose (coming soon)
1.0 Yellow/Everglades Rat Snake (Pumpkin)
1.0 Russian Sand Boa (Fang)
0.1 Normal Corn Snake (Mysty)
1.0 Anery Corn Snake (Suezo)
0.0.3 Eastern Milk Snakes (Uno, Dos, Tres)
1.0 Ball Python (Slytherin)
2.0 Smooth Green Snakes (working on names)
1.0 Northern Water Snake (coming soon)
1.0 Taiwan Beauty (coming soon)
0.1 Golden Greek Tortoise (Sunshine)
0.2 Mississippi Mud Turtles (Squirt & Shyanne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Norbert)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Moose)
0.0.1 Mountain Horned Dragon (Tiramasu)
0.1 Oustalets Chameleon (Cera) coming soon
1.0 Whites Tree Frog (Trevor)
2.0 Solomon Island Eyelash Frogs (Chompy & Gimli)
0.1 American Toad (Bump)
1.0 AFT Gecko (Cocoa)
5.5 Leopard Geckos (Trouble, Scooter, Simba, Firenze, Teddy, Mystique, Freckles, Dotty, Zipper, Twister)

It is either an aberrant N. sipedon, N. fasciata, or possibly even a hybrid between the two. N. sipedon and N. fasciata commonly hybridize along the fall line of the Carolinas, especially in areas of anthropogenic hydrological disturbance.

A ventral shot of the snake would help immensely in identifying it.
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Pierson Hill

Herpetology and Herpetoculture

I'm not getting him until the 2nd week in December unless plans change. As soon as he's home I'll take lots of pics, top and bottom, and will repost for help with ID. Thanks!
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Lyns Lair
WNY Herpetological Society

0.1 Cat (Mia)
4.2 Ferrets (Wolf, Shadow, Verdell, Sullivan, Boo, Peach)
2.0 Rats (Inky & Oy)
1.0 Carpet Python (Bear)
1.0 Malagasy Blonde Hognose (Wilbur)
1.0 Malagasy Giant Hognose (coming soon)
1.0 Yellow/Everglades Rat Snake (Pumpkin)
1.0 Russian Sand Boa (Fang)
0.1 Normal Corn Snake (Mysty)
1.0 Anery Corn Snake (Suezo)
0.0.3 Eastern Milk Snakes (Uno, Dos, Tres)
1.0 Ball Python (Slytherin)
2.0 Smooth Green Snakes (working on names)
1.0 Northern Water Snake (coming soon)
1.0 Taiwan Beauty (coming soon)
0.1 Golden Greek Tortoise (Sunshine)
0.2 Mississippi Mud Turtles (Squirt & Shyanne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Norbert)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Moose)
0.0.1 Mountain Horned Dragon (Tiramasu)
0.1 Oustalets Chameleon (Cera) coming soon
1.0 Whites Tree Frog (Trevor)
2.0 Solomon Island Eyelash Frogs (Chompy & Gimli)
0.1 American Toad (Bump)
1.0 AFT Gecko (Cocoa)
5.5 Leopard Geckos (Trouble, Scooter, Simba, Firenze, Teddy, Mystique, Freckles, Dotty, Zipper, Twister)

Hey,

I don't own the guy, but I was a frequent visitor until my school work got the best of me. He's had this pattern for at least a year now. To my knowledge, his color or pattern hasn't changed, unless I didn't notice it.

Dave