Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A while back, someone (I don't remember who it was now...maybe Robert Bruce?) started a thread around cage cleaning. In that thread, he said that he doesn't disinfect his cages, but only wipes them out with damp paper towels. His idea was that all of the bacteria would be removed by mechanical transfer to the paper thus eliminating the need for chemical disinfectants. Nearly everyone that responded (including myself) disagreed with this and stated that we regularly disinfect with vinegar, chlorine bleach, quaternary ammonia, what-have-you.

But...he did start me thinking. I know, I know...a dangerous thing, but nevertheless, I did start thinking about this whole process.

He may have a point, after all. We agreed that mechanical transfer may remove as much as 90% of the surface contaminants. My contention was that leaves 10% to continue to reproduce and present a threat.

Carl Gossett and I were chatting on the phone the other night and this subject came up. Here are the points we talked about:

1. Snakes are exposed to all sorts of pathogens in the wild, and they live with them. That's because of a couple of things. One thing is that their immune systems build up antibodies to them. The other thing is that they can move away from the source of the pathogens because they aren't contained in a cage with them as they are in captivity.

2. If we eliminate the pathogens from their environment and they aren't exposed to them, they naturally don't build up antibodies to them.

3. The mechanical action of wiping with a towel does remove the majority of the contaminants, as does rinsing with plain water.

Is it possible that we are doing as much harm as good by disinfecting too much? Are we actually lowering the animals natural resistance to pathogens by eliminating exposure? Then when the animal is exposed to a particular pathogen one way or another, it has no defense and the result is an infection that normally wouldn't occur in a wild snake?

Thoughts, opinions?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Those chemicals, if not properly removed completely from the cage will have far more damaging effects on the animals than 10% or less "pathogens". Even MY eyes and lungs can't stand those chemicals LOL! Do you think Indigos have their tortoise burrows lined with Chlorine or ammonium in the wild? A little feces maybe, but not MAN MADE CHEMICALS!
I have bred Texas Indigos in the 80's and NEVER had a problem cleaning the cage with good ol' water ONLY and paper towels and of course discarding the old substrate. NEVER used ANY man made chemicals - EVER! AND I still don't! I currently have 33 snakes (including a 4.5' yearling eastern indigo) an had them for quite some time - all happy!!!
You wanted an opinion. . . well there you go . . .(my 1.5 cents)

I am an expert at everything, but know so little and have so much to learn - Carsten Zoldy -

Zee

Oh, yeah..you are absolutely right about leaving the chemicals in the cages. Of course, I always rinse the cages thoroughly to get rid of all that stuff and I would assume everyone that uses chemicals would do the same, so that really wasn't a part of what I'm concerned with. Maybe it should be....

So, I take it you agree with the hypothesis I put forward?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I can see some merit to your hypothesis.
It's kind of like the problems we've seen in humans due to overusing antibiotics.

Eric

i would never under any circumstances allow my animals to be exposed to any cleaning chemicals of any kind! i only use good dishsoap, hot water & paper towels combined w/ a pretty tight cleaning schedule, period. that's plenty.....i saw someone in here a month or so ago actually boast that they 'use TONS of bleach when cleaning their waterbowls/cages'.in their waterbowls???? i shook my head in disbelief!! you will never get that ALL out ever, i don't care what you do! now you're talking buildup........ what goes round, comes round seems to me. i look at it this way, if even a draft can seriously sicken a snake, then what does the prolonged/constant use of ammonia, bleach & other toxins where they DRINK and eat in a small enclosed space do to them? it can't be too good.......

A friend of mine from KY reptile zoo was telling me that a recent study indicated that the "no water" hand sanitzers that are so popular are not nearly as effective as hand washing with mild soap, and actually are much less effective than washing with ONLY WATER.

The movement of the water rinses away more bacteria than a simple alcohol based hand wash can.

That would seem to support the theory that physical removal of pathogens is more effective than trying to kill them with disinfectants.

I think the single most important thing we can so as Dry keepers is check the water DAILY for feces.

Drinking water with feces in it would seem to be the fastest way to contract disease.

I used to teach Microbiology at a Junior College in western Texas and we did this same experiment every semester. Students would wipe their hands on a sterile plate and then different students would use different hand cleaning techniques to check their relatively efficiency at removing bacteria. The results were consistent from semester to semester.....

- rinsing with water for 2 minutes was better than nothing, but only just.
- rinsing and "washing" your hands with hot water was a little better, but still not effective
- using those alcohol gels was effective if you used enough. You couldn't just put a little dab on your hands and rub them together. And it worked better when you added a little water to it (but still didn't use running water).
- using straight alcohol (70%) was slightly more effective.
- simple washing with normal soap was about as effective as the alcohol wash (not the gel).
- the most consistently effective technique was washing you hands with a Triclosan (anti-bacterial) soap. This was surprisingly effective.

Since doing these tests over several years, I switched to soaking and washing my cages with these antibacterial detergents and hot water. I used to use bleach (which is effective) but have decided that since the Triclosan soaps work just about as well, why expose yourself/your animals to the chlorine fumes?

There are some that argue that using these Triclosan soaps is overkill, but since you are not using them directly on the animals I think it is a good solution for washing and disinfecting cages.

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Chris Harrison

Personally, I disagreed on many things that Robert said including this issue. How many of us Dry folks can honestly say that we are cleaning our cages as soon as a snake defecates? Few I would imagine including myself. During that time, indigos are already exposed to various bacteria/pathogens due to a captive confinement of being in a cage. So, making sure that cages are thoroughly disinfected, in my opinion, is critical for the long term health of our indigos. My 10 year old indigos have had few problems and I spend a lot of time in keeping my cages cleaned and disinfected....but they are still exposed to a less than 100% hygienic habitat which is a good thing as discussed. With all things being equal, or unequal, I will continue to follow a strict regimen of disinfection and my indigos still have opportunities to build a self defense or tolerance to the various pathogens that they would normally be exposed to. But to not disinfect our cages? That to me just doesn't make the least bit of sense.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

Related to cleaning. Instead of trying to thoroughly clean water bowls, I replace 8 oz. deli cup set inside a larger bowl each time I clean cage. Yes, check cages frequently in case water has been soiled. Now that it's fall with dry air I pour water in cages each day to increase humidity. Newspaper substrate. I don't use any disinfectants when cleaning cages, wiping them out well with warm water. Because Vision cages are molded plastic there's no cracks where feces can build up. Have to pay special attention to cleaning under the front lip. Snakes seem to aim for it.

I have to agree with Rob here.
Having kept Drys for the better part of 20 years, and not losing a single one to a bacterial of viral infection, I will stick with my current enclosure maintenance protocol.
As I have mentioned before, I use Chlorhexidine gluconate 2% only, as it is the safest anti-microbial I have found to date. Many of the zoological veterinarians I know use it to treat surface wounds on amphibians and most hospitals use it as a general disinfectant. I simply spray and wipe no need to rinse. I even wipe the snakes down with a diluted mixture from time to time.
Also, I steam clean all of my enclosures twice monthly. The small portable steam cleaners are inexpensive and come in quite handy for this.
I know Robert quite well. He is a very intelligent individual with an incredible knowledge base of Drymarchon husbandry and a collection of D. couperi second to none, so I will not dispute his methods.
However, while Robert's methods have worked for him, my own methods have worked for me, as Rob's methods have worked for him, all producing excellent results. This just goes to show, there isn't a single "best" method, when it comes to Dry husbandry.
In my humble opinion: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
I do feel it would be interesting, and worthwhile, to swab some enclosures which have been maintained utilizing various protocols and see what exactly is residing there, and at what levels, other then our Drys. Swabbing the snakes as well could prove quite interesting..

Jeff

You read my mind, Jeff. I'm going to try it (not with my Indigos, but with some Kingsnakes) and then do some swabs see what's living there and what concentrations.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

"One thing is that their immune systems build up antibodies to them. The other thing is that they can move away from the source of the pathogens because they aren't contained in a cage with them as they are in captivity.

2. If we eliminate the pathogens from their environment and they aren't exposed to them, they naturally don't build up antibodies to them."

i think the assumption here is that the development of antibodies is primarily accomplished as young animals. i don't know about snakes, but in adult mammals the immune system maintains the ability to produce antibodies to novel pathogens. any early first exposure to a specific pathogen should be just as serious as a later first exposure to the same pathogen. the immune system only has the upper hand when an organism is exposed to a specific pathogen a 2nd, 3rd, etc. time.

that said, i too have often wondered whether there is a general lack of immunological "exercise" in snakes raised in plastic shoeboxes and sterilized vision cages.

i certainly agree that potential pathogens must increase in number very rapidly within a cage that isn't constantly cleaned, as compared to their natural habitat.

very interesting series of "somethings" to ponder...

matt

I have had a friendly relationship with the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum for many years. They perform some of the finest herp care I've ever seen, and their vet is one of the best herp vets in the country. The herp curator once mentioned that it might be the quantity, rather than the variety of potential pahtogens in a captive animal's enclosure that makes a difference. That goes along with the thought that bacteria can and do build up in an unsanitized cage, and may reach levels where they overwhelm an animal's immune system.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of accidentally creating bleach and ammonia resistant strains of bacteria, as has happended at some zoos, and in hospitals. Not sure how to avoid that, except to rotate the chemicals used, and use high strength concentrations. I like to use Betadine, too, since it has relatively low toxicity to snakes--it's even used as a topical treatment for mouthrot.

I still wonder about the vexation effect of simple confinement. People don't generally give herps credit for having enough intellect to be frustrated by confinement, but what if it doesn't require intellect? What if confinement frustration occurs at a more primal level? Confinement frustration might contribute to an animal's stress levels, and make it vulnerable to exposure to pathogens. Don't have an answer to that dilemma, if it even exists

Its much the same with ppl. If you dont get exposed to germs or pathogens you get sick more often I have very rarely taken antibiotics and have not been sick in about 15 yrs.

As far as my snakes go I almost never dissinfect their cages unless I am transferring a new snake into a cage where a WC snake was living and I have had to date NO problems at all.

Drew

When I rarely do dissinfect I use a steam cleaner....

Drew