Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Had occasion to be in Bushnell, Florida, yesterday, so I stopped at the place selling the 'Black Dragons' in the classifieds, and got to see them up close. Also found out a bit about the new species study. Apparently the guy who is writing the paper is in Malaysia, and his name is Indrelli Das (sp?). The major differences that are being used to determine the new species are differences in the skull, the hemipenes, and the DNA. Supposedly the paper is due for publishing in December.

These folks have a whole building full of these monitors, about 50-60 in all, including some 6 footers. They appear to be completely black, top bottom and sides. The big male stayed in the threat posture the whole time I was in there, and the female in the bottom cage continually tail whipped the heck out of the door. They are very solidy built. I'm really too new to monitors to make any judgements as to whether they are a new species or not, but they are certainly impressive. Several were in shed, and the scales are extremely shiny. The one thing I noticed is that the scale pattern behind the head has almost a sharp chevron shape that is noticable on all of the animals where I could see the head. The tail is keeled and very muscular.

If anyone has any particular questions, I'll try to answer them. Like I said, I'm too new to monitors to make any distinctions, but it seemed a shame to be over there and not at least take a look.

Leslie

Did you happen to take any pics? Maybe some close ups of the heads.
Maybe Mark or Sam have heard of this Das person and can tell us more.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Nah, no pics. I was on my way back from my mother's burial at the National Cemetary when I stopped. Not exactly a photo occasion. But the pics in the ads are representative. What struck me most was how shiny they were after shed, and that particular behind the head scale parttern change. Almost reminiscent of a frilled dragon with the frill down - that sort of shape. That and the attitude! Although the young man who took us around said that some fo them were handleable. They sure did not seem flighty or scared. Just stood their ground and glared at me.

Leslie

Thanks, Leslie, for having a look and posting the information. Indraneil Das is a herpetologist at the Universiti Malaysia Sarawak, and his work is well-regarded in the scientific community, so maybe there IS something more here than just another color variant of V. salvator. We will see. Biologists have learned from hard experience not to say too much about things like new species before the formal scientific descriptions are published, because there are unscrupulous folks who will take your hard-earned information and try to publish it first. As I described in a post a month or so ago (one of the threads the moderator moved to the taxonomy forum), the rules about naming new species place all the advantage on priority; what with electronic publication, it is very easy for a scientist to get scooped these days, so I imagine that Das is not talking, yet!

The scalation pattern you mention is in fact characteristic of most monitors, but it's hard to notice the regularity of the scale rows on the neck owing to contrasting color patterns.

Without wanting to get a rant thread going, I wonder how many animals Das was able to look at for his scientific work? I bet it wasn't the 50 or 60 you saw at the dealer's place. If somebody thinks they're worth $5k a pop, even for a tiny fraction of that in Malaysia the local people are going to be motivated to get a bunch. Who's cleaning out the population here, the evil scientist, or the animal dealers?

I'm not going to touch that last paragraph! LOL

The scale pattern behind the head is different from what I notice on my sav, and on my ackies. As a matter of fact, that was the thing that caught my notice most because to me it was quite different from other monitors I've seen. The head is rather long and tapered, with a somewhat tree monitor shape to it, but the neck is shorter, and the head is larger by comparison to the tree monitors. I took a very long look at the black tree monitor they had, because of that scale pattern. It is quite different in appearance than that on the tree monitor, and there is no color pattern there to conceal it.

Leslie

Hahaha. Thanks for clearing that up with the Das fella.
Do us a favor Sam and keep an eye out for his paper and let us know where we can read it. You're never too old to learn something new. Atleast that's what my 9 year old black belt said when he signed me up for karate. I think he really signed me up so I would have to bow and call him Sir. Hahaha

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

I'll send Indraneil an e-mail tomorrow and see what's up with the publication details. It's likely to be published in the Raffles Museum Bulletin or something similar, which I realize most folks can't walk out and pick up at their local 7-11. However, somebody in the evil-monitor-scientist world will have a .pdf pretty soon, or even better, Das may put it on his website. I'm sure we can get the info promptly, and we'll post the details here.

I'm with Scott. Do let us inow when this paper comes available, and where we can find it. It's supposed to be out in Dcember, but I suspect the scientific community is like anywhere else, things are not always accomplished on the time schedule.

I'm really kind of excited to maybe have seen a species or subspecies not yet described. Just wish I was more knowledgable to be able to have given more information.

Leslie

Was the keeled tail a double or single row?

If the fella is in Malaysia and they came from there then they could be komaini. I still do not see anything distinct to make me rule out them being komaini.

There are other black salvators and $5k is alot no matter if it is komaini or a new sub-species.

Appeared to be single row.

Leslie

The reason I asked about the tail is Komaini types have been known to be heavily keeled and have a double row of scales.

The neck pattern you describe if I am understanding you correctly is common within salvator.

I understand of new species found daily. I never doubted that, I do not doubt anyones rep. but until I see something different then whats in front of me that is all I can judge.

The pictures posted appear to be komaini type. I believe we all agree they are black salvators that Glades has. Possably a new sub species.

But until proven otherwise if the shoe fits.

This picture is from cybersalvator of a true Komaini sure looks like the ones glades has to me.

But then again a black salvator from one island may appear the same as another island, now is that then the same salvator or a new sub species?

The picture does look similar, but the pointed chevron behind the head on the ones I saw was much more pronounced, and I did not see any of the mottling that is faintly seen on the picture you posted. Like I say, I'm in no position to say yes or no as to whether they are a new species, sub-species, etc., I was just curious and tried to make as many mental notes as I could.

Leslie

If your talking about a 6 foot heavy set adult then that could be why the difference. Or it could just be the picture I posted is dark and you cannot even see the eyes.

We will certainly find out once they do dna but then again what are they comparing it too? Are they simply going to compare it with salvator? All salvator localities known along with color phases? Will they even have a Komaini type to compare it with?
Will they compare it to a true black Komaini? or to the Komaini at the columbus zoo which does not appear to fit into the true Komaini type?

Have no idea what all they are comparing them to. Guess we'll have to wait for the study.

As to size, I saw several sizes, from the big ones, down to 2-3 footers. Never having seen a khomeni in the flesh, I really can't do a direct comparison. Plus, as I say, I'm sure no expert. I'm too new to monitors, so I'm sure there were things that you would have picked up on that I never even noticed.

Wish you were closer; I'd love to go out there with someone who has more experience with monitors to help me figure out just what I'm looking at.

Leslie

Sorry didn't mean to direct the testing to you. I was more thinking out loud.

I would not mind seeing them in person, to compare to what I know. I don't get over to the west coast often. Maybe I can squeeze it into my schedule.

No, that's cool.

Let me know if you are planning to go over, and I'll send you directions. It's in the boonies, but not hard to find and not far off I75. I'd be curious what a more experienced monitor person would make of them.

Leslie

Glades has 1 male on their price list that is 8'

When I was offered them more than a month ago from outside the country, they said they get up to 8-9' and are very heavy bodied.

Beau

maybe he will put up a picture. I have seen his and it has the same coloration and scale pattern to that one you put up.

I have no doubt they get large most salvators do. Actually my togian is still young but is growing at the same rate as my other salvators. My male cumingi is way over the size they were said to reach.

Just wanted to make sure you knew that the picture posted was of one in asia and not the "8 footer" This was before glades had them. I dont know if it really is an 8 footer, but if RObroy says it is, probably is pretty close.

Beau

"But then again a black salvator from one island may appear the same as another island, now is that then the same salvator or a new sub species?"

That's where the DNA testing comes in. Often two animals will 'look' alike but turn out to have been separated (as populations) for long enough to have become separate subspecies or species.

The big question is: if two subspecies of salvator are almost identical in appearance, would anyone pay $5,000 for one of those, knowing that the other is available at a fraction of the cost, just because it is a newly described subspecies (or even species)? Somebody somewhere would. I wouldn't. Neither would you, I imagine.

np

I often wonder why someone (like you) feel the need to rationalize why you would or would not pay this or that. (your not going to get them, for any reason or any price)

The fact is, Glades has them and can ask anything they like, thats their priviledge and choice. Whether someone/s will pay that is the another question.

I would have to ask, what do you sell your baby lacies for? Isn't that silly(whatever the price is) when the lacies live right in your yards and are very very common?

With that said, I would not pay that either, but of course for different reasons. The first being, I am not a salvator fan(but I do think those are very beautiful) The second and important reason is, history has showed that paying investment prices for species that can be collected and imported, is not a sound investment.

Many New Indo species were imported with the old, they will not be imported again, label(to fetch a high price). But sadly or not sadly, they were imported again and again.

Back to the point of this post, the seller can ask any old thing they like, for whatever reason they like. I guess it will always boil down to this, How bad do they want to sell them. I know, thats how I set prices.

I surely hope Leslie didn't let the "cat out of the bag" mentioning that they had 50-60 of them, cause that all by itself, is good reason to not pay $5000. I wonder how long they will want to house that many Wild caught waters?(any such nasty species) Thanks FR

"I often wonder why someone (like you) feel the need to rationalize why you would or would not pay this or that"

It doesn't really matter why I would or would not buy one, or why I would choose to rationalise my choice. Clearly we all have our reasons and all feel the need to rationalise them (including you):

"With that said, I would not pay that either, but of course for different reasons. The first being, I am not a salvator fan(but I do think those are very beautiful) The second and important reason is, history has showed that paying investment prices for species that can be collected and imported, is not a sound investment."

...I have been watching with interest the past few weeks a number of posts about 'true' red ackies vs yellow ackies that are reddish in colour. It seems a number of people have bought yellow ackies thinking they were reds and been happy with their purchase until someone told them it was a yellow. Then they were unhappy with their purchase.

Unless they bought a pair as an investment and were planning to sell the offspring (therefore the need for the more highly valued subspecies), why would it matter? If someone was happy with the animal to start with, why would a change in the animal's name matter if the animal itself is still the same one they bought?

About the above, of course you have the right to not pay any price. But that does not mean, they are NOT worth the asking price. The Value is with the seller, period. That is unless no one buys it. Then the seller must evaluate how bad he wants to move what they are selling. It just bothers me, when folks say, its not worth this or that. It seems to me, they are only trying to justify their own reasons for not buying. And those reasons have absolutely nothing to do with the value of those animals. One reason I picked you out is, you cannot buy them no matter what the cost or value. So, why would you say anything. I would be like me saying Lacies are not worth anything, because they are in your yards. I have no right to judge or rationalize the value of lacies in Australia, for the very same reasons, I cannot buy them.

I do apologise for picking you out. It was again, the straw and the broken back.

I totally agree with you about the color of the ackie thing. I believe I said that exact same thing, either on KS or v.n.. The only problem would be, ordering them and not being able to view them first. But I get the feeling most of this is merely wishing a plum is a peach. Its also, why I am the picture is worth all the words fella, because with varanids, people say just about anything and everything, for no particular reason. Cheers FR

No problems, Frank.

I actually agree with you on both points. My comments weren't on the intrinsic value of the monitors, but whether or not I, personally, would be willing to pay the asking price (which, as you correctly pointed out, was a hypothetical situation anyway, as I wouldn't be able to purchase them even if they were going for $5). Others would probably happily pay that price.

As far as lacies in Oz go, as you know it is illegal to catch wild ones and CB animals make better captives, anyway, so no matter how common they are in the wild there will always be honest people (or people that don't like the thought of imprisoning an animal that has tasted freedom) willing to pay for them. Including me. For such a spectacular animal I think the going rate is still pretty low. There's that intrinsic value thing.

As to letting the cat out of the bag, they were the ones that volunteered how many they had; I sure did not count them. So I hope they are not mad at me for passing along what they said.

Also, Frank, I have to sort of disagree with you a bit on the 'value' of animals being whatever the seller asks for it. As in any sort of retail, the value is what someone is willing to pay, if you're selling. If you can sell what you have for the price you set, that verifies the value. If you can't get someone to buy it, your valuation means nothing. It remains to be seen what the final value of these monitors will be. I personally think that they are very impressive animals, but I would not pay that much for something that obviously hates me as much as the big ones did!! HA!

Leslie

I did say about what you said. Please reread my post.

Then, monitors are not a normal market, they are also not a manifactured unit. Its a little bit of a different model.

You totally fail to understand why that $5000 is being asked. Its an invester or collector(of rarity) price. The investor price is paid in hopes of producing and making back your money and more(to invest and profit) The collector price is based of a characteristic that people have, some like to have what others don't(rarity).

Both of these are based on the item or in this case the species being limited or rare. Why the ,cat out of the bag, statement.

This fits the old, supply and demand, scheme very well.

forgetting about all of the above, for a moment. There are people who pay a grip of money for a little old piece of barbwire(old rare) or a piece of glass(insulator) for some old pole(telegraph) or a huge grip of money for a stinking baseball card.

so your thinking there is no one who will pay $5000 for a couple of shiny black big mean lizards????????? I bet there is and so does Glades, as they understand all this. Of course as in all things we do, we can be wrong. But I guarantee one thing, if they did not try to get that price, they would never get that price. Of course, like the stock market, you can wait and see what the price will do, and possibly miss out. Dang I should have got mirosoft when it first came out, or even homedepot. Thanks FR

No, I understand; and maybe I did misread your post. I'm sure someone will pay that price, but maybe not until they can get more of a handle on just what they're buying. That's sort of why I posted after I'd seen them, in the hope to be of some help to anyone who was interested. That said, I still ain't gonna pay that kind of money for something that hates me on sight!

Leslie

First, I truely think, Robroy at Glades, "knows" what species are what. I would think he has a far better handle on what is new and what is exsisting, then most if not all here, and that includes the mister sciences.

I say this, for several reasons. Which include, I was in europe with Robroy, and understood clearly, he has resources and contacts. He has them in the private world, the european scientific world, the zoo world and the world of exporters.

So, I have a very strong feeling, he would not call them different, if they were not different. Of course, the question of how different they are, is still valid.

What is so very surprising to me is, Many of you think there are no or few, new monitors, People, there may be hundreds of new monitors, that you do not know about. Yes, hundreds, and in all the continents they occur in. Of course, most are in indo.

Open your brains folks, there are somewhere between, 14,000 and 18,000 islands in Indo, and all occur well within the temperature and habitat limits of varanids(equatorial). I would imagine, that most if not all of these islands, have some sort of varanid(history has suggested they do) With science calling every population that is seperated, a new species, I again imagine, there will be a continued flow of new indo species for sometime.

Of course, it would be very very interesting if a totally "new group of monitors, was discovered. Something not fitting into the exsisting groups, like, indicus, timors, crocs, salvators, etc.

Please consider, monitors occur in the world, not in books. They are discoverd in the world, then at some time, put in books(maybe). Which means, of course, they are not in books, until discovered in the world. To be discovered, does not mean man does not know about them, it only means, the people with the books do not know about them or publish them.

This subject reminds me of when I was researching natural caves. It is common for the lenght of a cave to be published. For instance, such and such cave has 6 1/2 miles of known tunnels. What I found funny was this very common question, people always asked, how much of this cave is undiscovered? Cheers FR

From what the gentleman was saying, and it wasn't Robroy, it was his partner, I gather that this new one is being compared to the salvator. He did not tell me a lot, possibly because of not wanting to spoil Mr. Das' publishing, and quite possibly because I'm too much of a beginner to ask the right questions. But I did ask what was being looked at as different, specifically from the khomeni, hence the info that it is the skull, hemipenes, and naturally, the DNA, that is being focused on.

I was just fascinated by them. A very elegant and impressive monitor. It's just neat to me to see something I've never seen before, and if it turns out to be something that is completely new to the scientific world, even neater. Just figured that, since I had the opportunity to go see them, I would try to share info with anyone who would perhaps be interested.

Leslie

Robroy has been around a heck of a long time and has a very good reputation for a reason . He isn't going to list something to try to scam someone . His partner Robbie has been around a long time also and know exactly what a water monitor looks like.

There are a lot of shady people in this buisness that will tell you anything you want to hear to make a sale . These people are not one of those types.

A monitor is worth only what someone is willing to pay for them .

Stella
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com - Ron St.Pierre

np

All the ones I saw were being kept separately. I did not count to see if I saw all 50 or 60 that he said he had. The big male and the big female were both about 6 feet or more. Perhaps there were smaller ones in the back that were kept more than one to a cage, but if so, I did not see them.

Leslie