Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So I bought some Mazuri at the last local reptile show. I've been wondering how much I should feed.

Obviously greens get chewed a bit and compacted down, whereas a pellet of mazuri is already ground up and compacted. So far I've been feeding one or two pellets every couple of days as a small supplement to her normal green diet.

Any thoughts?

FYI, My tort is a yearling russian, and she goes APE for mazuri.

It sounds like you got a good schedule. I always suggest that the greens be the majority and the Mazuri be 1/4 to 1/3 of the diet.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

...am I right in assuming a pellet is a little more food than it appears to be (due to manufacurer compaction of the ingredients)?

Basically what I'm asking is, should I give a few less greens when I feed a pellet or two?
Doesn't overfeeding tend to cause pyramiding? I guess I'm being a bit paranoid...

Mazuri recommends feeding the pellets every day.

They recommend you feed the equivelant of 1%-4% of the tortoise's bodyweight in pellets. EX: A 100 gram tortoise would get 1-4 grams of Mazuri a day. I've forgotten how much the average pellet weighs.

I've raised russians for a few years, and have produced 10 hatchlings (9 this year).

My wild-caught adults liked the Mazuri sometimes. My first hatchling liked it, and grew quickly on it, reaching sexual maturity (he chases, head bobs, and mounts females) in two years.

I've got another hatchling at home now. I feed it only weeds, greens, flowers. It is growing at a much slower rate.

I'd say make the Mazuri the smallest part of the diet possible. A pellet a year is more than enough :->

Kidding. I decided there was no need for the stuff. If you feed them a pellet here and there, kind of like a food supplement, that would be OK. I tried for awhile to feed my torts at the recommended 1-4% of bodyweight and they didn't like it that much. Mazuri also states that you can add vegetation and hay to the diet, I think roughly 20% of the total diet (not the animal's weight!).

Frequent discussions on Mazuri on the forum has revealed that no one (that I recall) uses the product daily as recommended. Most people seem to use it as a once or twice weekly substitute for greens/weeds.

If you have just a yearling russian, you can do very well feeding it weeds and greens, a little chopped carrot, some hibiscus and dandelion flowers, etc. And add calcium or calcium/d3 as needed. If you continue with the Mazuri, I recommend (only my opinion based on experience) that you use it as supplement. I found it was a convenient way to give the torts calcium. First soak the pellet and then roll it lightly in calcium powder.

I enjoy planning a varied diet that I extract from my yard and the grocery store.

Actually, whats kind of interesting is she doesn't seem to even notice the calcium powder on her leafy greens to begin with.
Good idea coating the pellet though...I'll try that.

I would be interested in hearing from you on occasion as to the growth rate of your hatchling, since I have two of its siblings or half siblings, and I also feed a weed-only diet. Just to compare notes, so to speak.
-----
Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise (Testudo hermanni boetgeri)
0.2.0 Hermann's Tortoise (Testudo hermanni hermanni)
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
0.0.2 Russian Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I don't think you can overfeed and feeding 'too much' of a well balanced diet is not going to cause pyramiding. A tortoise will only eat what it needs. If you are feeding a wide variety of plant material overfeeding shoud not be a concern.

In the wild this animals have access to food 24/7... think about it.

Now, if you are feedin dog food, cat food, pork chops, peanutbutter... Then all bets are off and the above does not apply.

The suggested portion of Mazuri Tortoise diet of 1 to 4% of the total body weight is just that... a suggestion... a starting point. You can feed that daily or you can feed a larger portion every few days. The tortoise is going to eat what it needs based on the environmental conditions and the intake will vary based on those environmental conditions. The instructions on the tortoise diet also indicates this.

The instructions also states, not suggests, that grasses and hays should be the fed with the diet.

This makes the job of providing a good nutritional diet very easy and most likely decreases the margin of error that you will leave something out that is needed.

You have to realize that in the wild these tortoises eat every kind of plant material and then some that is available in their habitat. The nutritional value of the plants and bugs are going to vary seasonally and yearly depending on environmental factors. The work involved with providing the equivelent has got to be phenomenal and I don't think it is necessary.

I could be wrong and time will tell but there are many keepers that have been working with prepared diets such and the Mazuri tortoise diet and it does seem to be working quite well so far. The Mazuri Tortoise diet is well proven being in use now for over 20 years.

So, you can go with theory or you can go with practice.

Also, don't loose sight of the fact that this is recommended as a supplement... even by the manufacturer. It is very nutritious and efficient.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

From www.mazuri.com

Feeding Directions
Feed 1-4% of body weight per Tortoise per day. It is not necessary to wet the diet, although this may help to acclimate tortoises to the diet. Feed consumption will vary with temperature. Feed with good quality grass hay. Fresh fruits and vegetables (less than 20% by weight of total diet) may also be provided if desired.

I think my point was missed.

While those are the manufactures recommendations on feeding the diet, the point in that case is that it is a base from which to start and it should be adjusted as desired or needed considering environmental conditions and the specific animals needs.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Wasn't trying to contradict you, EJ.

You were discussing the manufacturer's instructions, and I just listed them from the website.

I agree with you.

Don't use the product as instructed :->

I guess you misunderstood again because the manufactures instructions are just fine if the instructions are followed as written. Those instructions serve as a good starting point when first using the diet.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

adfasdf

.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

"I don't think you can overfeed and feeding 'too much' of a well balanced diet is not going to cause pyramiding. A tortoise will only eat what it needs. If you are feeding a wide variety of plant material overfeeding shoud not be a concern. "

"In the wild this animals have access to food 24/7... think about it. "

Ok, now just to rock the boat a tad...

A tort also has a huge habitat range compared to my indoor pen (its winter up here in MA). In my outdoor pen over the summer I saw my girl take a small bite of one weed then run over to another and thake a bite, etc. A sort of "The weeds are always greener on the other side" kind of thing. Won't this wandering limit food intake somewhat and also burn off more of the calories than a tort would in a small indoor pen?

In addition, russians are really only active a few months a year...they wake up, gorge for a couple months, snooze a couple more months through the hottest months, then wake up again and gorge, then go to sleep for several months (the rest of the year).

AND in their natural habitats, its mostly dry grassland correct? Since they arent as big of a fan of grass, they'd be specifically looking for the leafy stuff. And I'd think there'd be alot less of this stuff lying around...essentially a short supply of leafy greens compared to a huge pile of grocery greens (organics only of course) and weeds (which I grow in my bathroom...heh).
And wouldn't those wild greens have a little less nutrients than what we grow simply because the ground is sandier with less nutrient rich soil?

Not to be a pain, I'm just curious. I like to learn.

"Now, if you are feedin dog food, cat food, pork chops, peanutbutter... Then all bets are off and the above does not apply. "

Mmmm...pork chops...

No no...none of that. Besides weeds and various greens, the only thing she'll get is a pellet of mazuri and a small bit of red bell pepper or maybe a grape quarter every long now and then as a treat.

Yup on all counts.

Keep in mind that the image you have of the habitat is not really what it is like but what the author is trying to portray.

Take something local like the spotted tutle or box turtle. Look in a book and the described habitat is usually bog or woodland BUT I know you can find them in fields around streams... you get the idea.

Getting back to the Russians habitat. Yea, it's dry but is it always dry and barren? How would it survive.

As to the calorie intake, once again, it is going to take in what it needs. I'm sure you've watched your guys. When the temps start dropping the feeding response slows down.

I would think that dried weeds are actually more nutritious by weight because of the lack of water content.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

One more question then....

Due to the fact this species gorges for a small number of months then sleeps for the majority of the year (correct me if im wrong but isnt something like 5 months awake and 7 asleep?), wont keeping them awake at all times mess up their metabolism and growth rates?

Again, not to be a pain, I'm just curious if they are able to adapt to a new environment much different from the wild where food is plentiful at all times and not just those 4-5 months.

Plus I don't want to subject my girl to health issues and I respect your expertise and opinions.

What you are dealing with are very valid questions and I really don't know.

I always say that hibernation is an adaptation to unfavorable conditions. If you are providing favorable conditions 24/7 I would think that you are going to get favorable development.

Is this bad?????? I don't know.

Some present the impression that these animals are born with a set clock and if that clock is made to go faster the animal has less time. Believe it or not there are theories along these lines where humans are concerned... you know... Live Fast/Die Young... There's no basis for it.

Dr Roger Klingenberg seems to have some evidence that in boxies (not tortoises) there is a varience in hormones and the like that comes along with hibernation. He seems to believe that this is a necessity to the long term survival of Boxies that normally hibernate.

I've had the crappiest luck with boxies but seem to have a handle on it now and am inclined to agree with Dr. Klingenberg as far as WC boxies are concerned. Maybe in that case hibernation is a necessity. I'm keeping my eye on that but it really doesn't make sense to me.

I also have russians that are going on 4 years in my care now and they are doing fantastic without the hibernation.

As with everything else... it depends and we really don't know about the actual physiology of these critters. Your guess is as good as anyones.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

One other thing.

You are subjecting you pet to health issues regardless of what path you take. If you go the 'natural' path you run the same risk of feeding you animal the wrong thing as if you were to go the 'unnatural' path.

The point I always try and get across is that if you are trying to totally control the nutritional intake of your pet you would have to know what that intake should be to begin with. I don't think this is really possible. You can have a general idea as a starting point but the specifics has to be adjusted with time based on the response of the individual tortoise. This is why 'variety' is the mantra and that is because we really don't 'know'.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

And good points all around.
Thanks for the insight!

Along these lines I'd like to point out the feeding schedules for my tortoises.

They get Mazuri one day (as much as they can eat in one sitting then it is removed)... a day is skipped... they get grass clippings another day and it is left in the enclosure... skip a day... grocery greens are fed (as much as can be eaten in one sitting and then removed)... skip a day... and start again. For the guys outside they also eat what ever pops up in their pens. For the guys indoors they get the same in addition to what ever weeds I throw in.

Now, some species get more or less of the above schedule depending on observations over the years so its not a fixed schedule.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I have a 10 month old Leopard Tortoise, who I can say unfortunately, I have never weighed. But he is about 3 inches long-Is your diet good for him?

Thanks

I'll say this time and again because I think this point should be made very clear.

I don't know if this schedule is good or bad. It is the results of a hunt to put together a diet that is efficient and produces the results I'm looking for. The hunt has been going on ever since I've been keeping reptiles and it is a hunt that I suspect will continue. It is also the results of much networking with other keepers, research and experimentation with many individuals of many species.

The results I'm achieving with the above schedule are impressive to me (as well as those that have seen my tortoises) and I'm really excited about the shape and health of the tortoises I'm raising.

So, that is why I do strongly recommend this kind of diet. This is also not to say that it is the only diet you should use. It is a suggestion.
-----
Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

...perhaps it's time to give them they own " arena "...also, it's not a bad idea to ask Mazuri to sponsor or pay for it...