Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't think it is right for people on here to suggest to newbies that all you can use to keep your uro alive is UVB lights because thats just wrong.You can use UVB lights or MVB lights and the uro will be fine but you can also dust with vitamin d3 I believe that you should tell them both choices and let them decide and not badger them into thinking THEY HAVE TO HAVE UVB BULBS.I personally use vitamin d3 and calcium supplements and I used to use uvb when I switched I saw no different in behavior at all and my animals are just as healthy as they were.

The truth is, it's debated. Clearly, D3 is necessary, but where the animal gets it from is up for strong debate. Folks argue back and forth that one works, the other doesn't, and everyone else is wrong. There simply are no controlled lab studies proving one way or the other - the closest I know of are some studies done with various chameleon species and the results are moderately conclusive at best. Some sources claim that they use no supplements, UVB, or natural sunlight at all and have healthy animals.

Personally, I use UVB. I am the last thing in the world to an expert, but I know enough to know that getting oral supplements dosed correctly is a challenge. For me, it's too risky as D3 can easily be overdosed as well as underdosed. My uros don't eat every speck of food every day, so I wouldn't know exactly how much they're getting.

You are absolutely correct in that no one lately has really been mentioning the D3 supplement options. That doesn't really bother me, though, since in many cases, newbies their own research and will find out on their own. And if the newbie is the sort to ask one question on a forum and treat that as The Law, then I'd rather recommend them toward UVB, since it's harder to goof up than supplements.

My two cents.
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Uromastyx Geyri (Joe and Arthur)
2.0.1 Uromastyx Dispar Maliensis (Tank, Turtle, and new neighbor Spike)
1.2 Anolis Carolinensis (Bowser, Leeloo, and Sprocket)
1.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Bruce and Sheila)
1.0 Betta Splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.1 Felis Domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)
And several miscellaneous community fish

there is no need to be rude about it. all you asked was if anyone used halogen lights and dusted their uros food. if you had specified dusting with D3 then maybe we all would not have suggested UVB bulbs. i personally think of dusting as using calcium and multivitamins. there are so many people out there who think that if you just give calcium to a lizard then they will absorb it no matter what, which is what i thought you were saying and i am sure others did also.
the only thing that matters to us on this forum is that everyone's uros are healthy, so i am sorry that we recommended UVB in hopes that your uro would stay healthy and happy
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vonnie
***There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is in having lots to do and not doing it. Mary Wilson Little ***

You guys should skip over and read this same thread in the BD forum. Someone posted a REALLY good, really educated response. It is the second to last post i believe, and its long, but definately worth the read
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

Isn't that what this whole place is about? Someone asks a question, one person answers to the best of their ability, another answers to the best of their ability, and so forth. I wouldn't give both answers simply because I haven't tried both of the approaches, therefore, I don't feel I should be giving advice on something I know very little about.

If everyone always gave all the choices, there would be a lot fewer (and longer) posts around here.

Just my .03 cents (inflation)
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2.1 - Rocky, Runako, and RoxyIII (my care sheets)

I concur with the previous posts, but also want to emphasize the point that we can only speak to our own opinions. Personally I believe that there are other effects from a UVB light other than D3 production that are necessary for long term happy, healthy Uros. It also effects hormone production, how they literally "see" their food, and a variety of other things. In my book, the further from nature we get with our set-ups the more complicated it gets to make sure the animals are getting the absolute best quality of life possible. These more complicated options, which admittedly I think are second best anyway, are NOT for the beginner. So I recommend UVB bulbs. 1) I think they are a better option, and 2) I think they are more suited to the novice, which in this case your question indicated you were.

Just my 0.02 (a discount for the day)

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

I have done a lot of research over the years on D3 supplementation vs UV lighting and I have decided on self ballasted mercury vapor bulbs, specifically the "Mega-Ray" brand. They give off heat and uvb and uva and can be used farther away then the usual 12" of other bulbs and they have a 6 month warranty. However the tank I built is high enough so that these lights can be put into the tank instead of on top of the tank so that the heat from the bulbs heats the tank and this allows me to use less wattage and fewer bulbs. Plus the bulbs are more fragile and should not be moved as would be neccessary if they were on top. Also a screen top filters out some of the UV of UV lights, sometimes as much as 40%. There are also externally ballasted mercury vapor bulbs available that use a special fixture and these bulbs last a very very long time.
My point is that if you do your research, you will find what works best for your situation/setup. This type of bulb will not work for everyone. I do agree will the previous posts that providing the correct dosage of D3 is tricky at best. Giving too much can be as bad as not enough so make sure you do a lot of research. Your priorities should be:
1- What's best for the animal.
2- What will work best for you and your setup.

>>I don't think it is right for people on here to suggest to newbies that all you can use to keep your uro alive is UVB lights because thats just wrong.You can use UVB lights or MVB lights and the uro will be fine but you can also dust with vitamin d3 I believe that you should tell them both choices and let them decide and not badger them into thinking THEY HAVE TO HAVE UVB BULBS.I personally use vitamin d3 and calcium supplements and I used to use uvb when I switched I saw no different in behavior at all and my animals are just as healthy as they were.

I don't think anyone has said UVB is the only way to go. I would guess that most people use some form of UV lighting so that is why that side of the issue is presented more often here.

If asked my opinion of lighting in general and UV lighting in particular I will give my own personal opinions and examples of what I personally use.

There is definately more than one way to raise healthy uros. I know some breeders use d3 only and no UV at all (probably because it is cheaper than a lot of bulbs) and raise fine healthy uros.

To quote part of my reply in the previous thread:

As to whether your uro needs uva is another question. I personally believe in using both strong uva and uvb lighting. There are others that use none at all and supplement with d3. I personally think it is trickier to get it right via the supplementation route.

I am not sure how that is badgering someone to use only UV lighting. Sure it suggests that I prefer UV lighting and do not prefer supplementing, but all I can do is present my preferences.

I then go on to suggest buying some cheap fluorescent UV lights to use. Again all I can do is present what I personally would do.

If you feel the supplementing option is not discussed here enough please feel free to start a thread discussing the benefits of supplementing with d3 and how to do it correctly.

Don't be surprised if you find yourself in the minority on the subject and people disagree that it is the best method. That does not mean it is a bad method, it just means they choose not to use that method.

Try not to get annoyed with my opinion as I am definately not annoyed by yours
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Mike Wilson
mwilson@fuu.net

Well said Mike, I couldn't agree more

EEK you misinterpreted I thank you for your information the part about you recommending UVB was good.It was my fault I didnt say i dusted.I meant to other people not about that post.Like a new person comes in asks about lighting and you only say you have to use uvb thats all.I was just saying that both choices should be presented.

>>EEK you misinterpreted I thank you for your information the part about you recommending UVB was good.It was my fault I didnt say i dusted.I meant to other people not about that post.Like a new person comes in asks about lighting and you only say you have to use uvb thats all.I was just saying that both choices should be presented.

No problem. I did understand that you supplement and were doing fine with it. The problem of discussing UVA while ignoring UVB is that the only way to get UVA is the exact same way you get UVB (fluorescent and MVB) so if you decide you want to provide some UVA you might as well throw some UVB in there as well because it won't cost anymore (I don't think there is much price difference between a reptisun 2.0 and a 5.0). I know you don't like MVB as you had some bad experiences with them so if you do decide to provide some UVA you are pretty much stuck with fluorescent.

As to your original question on UVA, I think it is a good thing for the mental health of uros. It is not nearly as contentious a subject as UVB vs supplements. Since it is mainly used to stimulate the more natural behavior of uros, you can simply observe them to see if you think you need it or not. If they are eating well and and seem to be healthy and stress free you are probably ok with the current level they are getting (which may be from none to a lot).

I think that overall ambient light levels have just as big a part to play in uro health. For me the brighter the better, regardless of the type or quality of the light. I run 170 watts of fluorescent light and 350 watts of incandescent light in my 4 foot enclosure. It makes my eyes water to look up into the lights but my uro loves it. That may seem like a lot but it is probably only 30-40% as bright as noon time sun. That is another reason I like fluorescent and halogen lights, you get a lot more light per watt than you do from plain old incandescent bulbs.

Outside of the whole UVB issue that pretty sums up my position on lighting... throw a ton of lights up there then put some more on. (long as it doesn't get too hot )
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Mike Wilson
mwilson@fuu.net

Zoo med basking bulbs say right on the box gives off uva which is beneficial to the mental well being of reptiles and amphibians.But it doesn't matter anyhow I decided to buy a uvb bulb to see if I get any different results and if after a year of using uvb bulbs if I do not see any difference in my animals health behavior etc. I am going to ditch them completely forever.

>>Zoo med basking bulbs say right on the box gives off uva which is beneficial to the mental well being of reptiles and amphibians.But it doesn't matter anyhow I decided to buy a uvb bulb to see if I get any different results and if after a year of using uvb bulbs if I do not see any difference in my animals health behavior etc. I am going to ditch them completely forever.

Fluorescents and MVB are the only way to get significant amounts of UVA. Incandescents do put out a very very tiny amount of UVA (and no UVB) which allows manufacturers to claim UVA output.

What the super special coated reptile bulbs do is to filter out some of the red and yellow making the light look bluer and reducing the total light output slightly thus very slightly increasing the ratio (but not the amount) of UVA output.

Here is a website with a bit more info on incandescent and neodymium bulbs.

I have heard some people say that incandescents put out a lot of UVA because you can get incandescent black lights. Yes you can buy something called an incandescent black light but what it puts out is mainly purple light with just a tiny bit of uva. Even the halloween crowd admit incandescents suck at putting out UVA.

Bottom line is to buy incandescents based on what you need for heat and overall ambient light. You can also choose for what the light looks like, some people just like the bluish look of the neodymium basking bulbs and that is great. Just don't think you are getting a UV producing bulb.
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Mike Wilson
mwilson@fuu.net