Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Im pretty excited right now. My Everglades Rat came today. It a female and im excited because im breeding her to my yellow rat this spring. I got her off of Dwight Good, she is a cb 97'. i figure ill breed her your a few years, and use her for educational purposes and as a display animal.
Im kinda of nervous because iv never bred snakes before, but hopefully everything goes well and right now its all riding on weather or not my yellow rat can do his job. I think he a boy snake, so i guess we'll find out in a few months. When is it ok to start breeding them, i was thinking march. Im not brumating them because i dont have a place cold enough for that in my house right now. Can anyone tell me some good places to find infon on breeding everglades.

RV
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Corns 0.0.3
0.0.1 03' Amel
0.0.1 03' Normal
0.0.1 04' Ghost
Ratsnakes
Yellow Rat 1.0.0 i think
Everglades 0.1.0 cb 97'

my lil sisters under my supervision
0.0.1 Green water dragon ---- "Dragon"

Congratulations on your new Everglades rat! Hope it does very well with you and please post some pics so we can see the new guy if you can.
Question though, why not breed it to another Everglades vs. the Yellow? I think if you breed the two, you're going to end up with a muddy snake half way between the two. It can be hard to tell Everglades from Yellows in the areas where they overlap, and Everglades aren't as common as Yellows from what I've seen. A nice clean orange Everglades, or a nice clean Yellow is a great snake. A mix will probably just fade the colors. I'm not totally against hybrids, and these snakes do intergrade in parts of their ranges, but I don't think the off spring would be as nice as either of the parents. I could be wrong and this is just my opinion, so please don't take it as an attack of any kind. I just know when I've had both Yellows and Everglades, I wanted them to be very distinctly different looking snakes.
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Lora

nm

my thoughts are this, there just my opinion.

Now this is just what iv read so im not saying its right or wrong. I have been reading that finding a true everglades rat with no yellow rat in them is pretty hard to find. And there hard t find because they are intergrading more and more in the wild.

Now this female i just got is a captive hatch. But she has a fare amount of yellow on her, now iv never kept everglades before so im not sure if this is normal or not. Also the other reason im wanting to breed her to my yellow rat is because hes the only adult male i have. And the final reason is because i would like to show my little step sister, who is crazy about reptiles, what it takes to breed them and raise a hatchling up. besides letting her watch the female lay her eggs, them hatch and take there first meals, would be a real good way to keep her interested in reptiles.

Im not a real big fan of hybrids but i feel that intergrades that occure naturaly are ok aslong long as its not over done. I would like the get a male everglades and a female yellow rat so i could have a pair of yellows and a pair of everglades but for right now im happy and my snakes are happy so thats really all that matter. thanks for the question, i hope i answered it.

RV
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Corns 0.0.3
0.0.1 03' Amel
0.0.1 03' Normal
0.0.1 04' Ghost
Ratsnakes
Yellow Rat 1.0.0 i think
Everglades 0.1.0 cb 97'

my lil sisters under my supervision
0.0.1 Green water dragon ---- "Dragon"

one more thing to think about is what are you going to do with all the babies?

-Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to address all your points.

>>Now this is just what iv read so im not saying its right or wrong. I have been reading that finding a true everglades rat with no yellow rat in them is pretty hard to find. And there hard t find because they are intergrading more and more in the wild.

- I agree with this statement, Everglades are less common, and a nice Everglades that is really distinct from the intergrades is a more valuable snake (at least to me), because of the lower numbers. I think that's worth preserving because- and I'm speculating here because I haven't read any field studies on this, just field guides on Florida snakes- there might not be as many Everglades in the wild to maintain the species. Creating a mix will lose the characteristics that make an Everglades an Everglades.

>>Now this female i just got is a captive hatch. But she has a fare amount of yellow on her, now iv never kept everglades before so im not sure if this is normal or not.

-Is she an intergrade? The breeder should be able to let you know. There are some ways to tell like coloration, tongue color, iris color. Posting a picture would help if you'd like the people on the forum to take a look.

>>Also the other reason im wanting to breed her to my yellow rat is because hes the only adult male i have.

-Ok- I don't think this is a good reason. There's time enough to get a pair of the same species, maybe not right now, but next season or the season after that. I don't feel that just because you have two animals of the opposite sex, you should automatically breed them. If you're going to breed animals in captivity, there should be a reason other than- I've got two and they're adults. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh. I've got animals I've been waiting to grow to adult size for YEARS. I've really been working on my patience here. Because I think it's worth it to produce quality animals that will have a place in the market.

>>And the final reason is because i would like to show my little step sister, who is crazy about reptiles, what it takes to breed them and raise a hatchling up. besides letting her watch the female lay her eggs, them hatch and take there first meals, would be a real good way to keep her interested in reptiles.

-I agree that the cycle of life is pretty facinating. I'm glad you're encouraging your little step sister to enjoy reptiles. There are plenty of other great things that snakes do besides breeding and laying eggs (though someone might disagree with that ). Again, just my opinion, but I had snakes for over 10 years before I even considered breeding them, because I wanted to watch them grow and observe their behaviors. I also love to see all the pics on the forum of eggs and hatchlings, so I get my fix that way while I'm waiting for my pairs that I raised to reach breeding age. I'm hoping to enhance particular characteristics-typically color and pattern- with selective breeding of locality animals (where the locality is known). But that's me...

>>Im not a real big fan of hybrids but i feel that intergrades that occure naturaly are ok aslong long as its not over done. I would like the get a male everglades and a female yellow rat so i could have a pair of yellows and a pair of everglades but for right now im happy and my snakes are happy so thats really all that matter. thanks for the question, i hope i answered it.

-I appreciate your thought out response. I'm glad you're enjoying your snakes and teaching your sister to respect other living creatures, even if they aren't cute and furry. I do hope your new snake settles in and does well with you. They're great critters and deserve good homes!

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Lora

I am reading this set of posts, and I still want to know what our new breeder is going to do with all those interglades that his rats produce? There is no demand out there for mutts. If someone wants to breed their snakes, get a pair of snakes that are the same subspecies. Don't breed unwanted mutts.

Most glades have yellow influence in them already. He wants to breed his glades and yellow and for good reasons (not "to make money" or "cause it seems cool". I think some of you are being quite discouraging just because you don't like the fact that it would be an intergrade. I know if I was in his shoes, I wouldn't buy another glades or yellow just so I could say the babies were "pure" when in all likelihood they will not be. Ultimately, they're his snakes and he can do as he likes with them. I for one support the idea of breeding to get a better understanding of their life cycle and help educate his sister.

These animals intergrade in the wild, most in captivity are intergrades, and apparently if you don't like that fact you think you should discourage new hobbyists from creating more. That won't make them go away. If you're against this, breed your own pure glades. I'm not trying to be rude or attack anyone, but he asked for info. about breeding them and unless I missed it, no one has helped him out there. Everyone just decided to try and change his mind about breeding his snakes. I know some of you were very polite and just wanted to interject your opinion, and I can understand that-I'm just doing the same. While he will need to consider what to do with the babies, I just think we could be a little more supportive and help him out with the info. he needs. Personally I've never had a glades or yellow so I really can't contribute there. Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Good luck with your new snake Rttlervenom.

How embarassing.

If someone wants to breed their snakes, get a pair of snakes that are the same subspecies.

Newsflash! "Everglades" rat snakes and "yellow" rat snakes are the same species, Elaphe alleghaniensis and are no longer considered "subspecies." In the future they may receive the Pantherophis moniker, but until Collins and crew at the CNAH recognize them as such I'll keep using Elaphe.

Hope this helps,
dg
CNAH

It me Jon, I was wondering if id see you here in the ratsnake forum.

RV
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Corns 0.0.3
0.0.1 03' Amel
0.0.1 03' Normal
0.0.1 04' Ghost
Ratsnakes
Yellow Rat 1.0.0 i think
Everglades 0.1.0 cb 97'

my lil sisters under my supervision
0.0.1 Green water dragon ---- "Dragon"

Lora, that was a very well worded response. Thanks for doing such a nice job expressing the sentiments of myself and others.
Rttlrvnm, I like your enthusiasm! These folks tend to be a pretty smart group with a lot of expereince. I've learned a lot from this forum. Good luck with your animals.

because she is in shed right now. As for what atbout her babies, ill probably keep a few, iv got a few friends that would like some, and im sure i could sell a few localy. As of right now, i think im gonna hold off on breeding her until i find out if she is a true everglades or an intergrade. If she is a true everglades then i will try and find a male to breed her with because id like more to keep the genetic diversity in a species that is not very common in the wild. And if she is a intergrade then i may breed her to my yellow rat. I mean christmas isnt even here yet and who knows what might pop up in a christmas present. As soon as she shed ill get pics to you all, and we'll find out.

thanks for not really bashing to much
RV
-----
Corns 0.0.3
0.0.1 03' Amel
0.0.1 03' Normal
0.0.1 04' Ghost
Ratsnakes
Yellow Rat 1.0.0 i think
Everglades 0.1.0 cb 97'

my lil sisters under my supervision
0.0.1 Green water dragon ---- "Dragon"

i think im gonna hold off on breeding her until i find out if she is a true everglades or an intergrade. If she is a true everglades then i will try and find a male to breed her with because id like more to keep the genetic diversity in a species that is not very common in the wild. And if she is a intergrade then i may breed her to my yellow rat.

Hello,
I bought the snake in question as a hatchling in 1997. She was sold to me as an everglades rat snake. Her picture can be seen below. Is she a pure everglades rat snake? I think so, but that is just my opinion. Her tongue has a small bit of black on it. To some people that is a sign of impurity. *shrug* She has thrown some nice babies for me over the years, some of which have graced this very forum in pictures posted by some of the forum regulars.

In my opinion, Everglades rat snakes are not as rare in the wild as the 'experts' will lead you to believe. Now they might not be as nice or as common as they were in 1827 or 1955, but they are still there. I've found at least half a dozen in the past 12 months in only two trips to south Florida. Alongside them I've also found what appear to be pure yellow rats. Is the everglades rat snake just a color phase of the yellow rat snake? I surely don't know but that could be a possibility at the current time.

One other note and I'll get off the soapbox. Last November my friends and I found a 'yellow' rat snake in south Florida that was bright, bright yellow but had red eyes and a SOLID red tongue. Go figure?

Later,
dg

Hi Dwight. I also have a wc, yellow rat that has very deep orange eyes and a pure red tongue. Her overall color is also much more orangey than my male who looks just like your Palm Beach County locale yellows. I've been meaning to ask if this is a definitive distinguishing trait, with yellows ~always~ having black tongues and glades ~always~ having red tongues. Billy

>>i think im gonna hold off on breeding her until i find out if she is a true everglades or an intergrade. If she is a true everglades then i will try and find a male to breed her with because id like more to keep the genetic diversity in a species that is not very common in the wild. And if she is a intergrade then i may breed her to my yellow rat.
>>
>>Hello,
>>I bought the snake in question as a hatchling in 1997. She was sold to me as an everglades rat snake. Her picture can be seen below. Is she a pure everglades rat snake? I think so, but that is just my opinion. Her tongue has a small bit of black on it. To some people that is a sign of impurity. *shrug* She has thrown some nice babies for me over the years, some of which have graced this very forum in pictures posted by some of the forum regulars.
>>
>>
>>
>>In my opinion, Everglades rat snakes are not as rare in the wild as the 'experts' will lead you to believe. Now they might not be as nice or as common as they were in 1827 or 1955, but they are still there. I've found at least half a dozen in the past 12 months in only two trips to south Florida. Alongside them I've also found what appear to be pure yellow rats. Is the everglades rat snake just a color phase of the yellow rat snake? I surely don't know but that could be a possibility at the current time.
>>
>>One other note and I'll get off the soapbox. Last November my friends and I found a 'yellow' rat snake in south Florida that was bright, bright yellow but had red eyes and a SOLID red tongue. Go figure?
>>
>>Later,
>>dg

]] I also have a wc, yellow rat that has very deep orange eyes and a pure red tongue. Her overall color is also much more orangey than my male who looks just like your Palm Beach County locale yellows. I've been meaning to ask if this is a definitive distinguishing trait, with yellows ~always~ having black tongues and glades ~always~ having red tongues.

Billy,
For most people I think tongue color is a definitive distinguishing trait, but personally I'm on the fence about it. I've only seen one yellow that had a red tongue (but I'm sure there are plenty more out there!) and have seen quite a few glades that had partially black tongues. In my opinion, a "knockout" everglades would be red-orange with red eyes and a bright red tongue. But a "good" everglades could be similarly colored but with bits of black in the tongue. I wouldn't necessarily call it an intergrade or anything just because there was a little black in the tongue color. That's my personal opinion.

Later,
dg

I'm by no means an expert living in California as I do with no native Elaphe (Pantherophis) native to this state. I must say though that the picture and tongue description spells everglades to me. The description of the true everglades specimens that Neill and E. Ross Allen used back in 1949 was the color of the snake is "ochraceous" and its tongue color is partially "red". These are only two of the descriptions they made from the 2 specimens they described in detail that would bare their names. Ochraceous means yellowish or brownish orange. The partially red tongue description referred to the rest being black. So you have a yellowish or brownish orange snake with a partially red tongue with black edges. The information comes from a paper I've read written by Kathy Love. The snake in the picture Dwight has posted definitely looks like a true everglades. but not having collected the founding parents yourself, anything can be up for question.
The next question would be what happened to that yellow rat snake you saw last November Dwight? LOL. You most certainly don't have to nor are you obligated to answer, but that would be my next question. HeHe. It eats me up when Dwight throws those things in like that.

Terry Parks

The next question would be what happened to that yellow rat snake you saw last November Dwight? LOL. You most certainly don't have to nor are you obligated to answer, but that would be my next question.

Terry,
The snake was collected but not by me. I tried to talk my friend Dan out of it but he wouldn't budge. I'm sure he still has it, next time I am in Florida I'll try to snag some pics.

Later,
dg

That would be great if you get a chance to take some pics Dwight.

Terry Parks

RV
-----
Corns 0.0.3
0.0.1 03' Amel
0.0.1 03' Normal
0.0.1 04' Ghost
Ratsnakes
Yellow Rat 1.0.0 i think
Everglades 0.1.0 cb 97'

my lil sisters under my supervision
0.0.1 Green water dragon ---- "Dragon"

Dwight,
That's a beautiful snake and it's got the characteristics I'd look for in an Everglades. I'm glad you've found them to be more common than reported (hey, I'm going by field guides of Florida snakes because I didn't get the chance to find them my last two trips down, though I wish I had). The Yellow with red eyes sounds really neat, any pics of that one??? I'd love to see it.

RV,
Congratulations on a great snake! Not trying to bash you, we've all got our opinions on how we keep our animals. As far as your question about how to breed them, there's some links that might help you in your research. You may have already read some of them in researching your new snake.

http://www.reptileallsorts.com/gladescareguide.htm
http://www.kingsnake.com/colubrid/
http://www.applegatereptiles.com/articles/problems.htm
http://www.renegadereptiles.com/breedinginfo.htm

People each have their own things they do, like when to start brumating, how cool, and how long.
Hope that answered the how to breed (not should I breed) question.
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Lora

I'm glad you've found them to be more common than reported (hey, I'm going by field guides of Florida snakes because I didn't get the chance to find them my last two trips down, though I wish I had).

What county were you herping in? Everglades rats are fairly common in western Palm Beach county. My first trip down there I completely struck out as I was totally unfamiliar with the terrain. Here in KY there are always wooded areas to search for rat snakes with old barns, buildings, junk piles, rock piles, etc for them to hide in. In south Florida its pretty much nothing but roads, canals, and sugarcane as far as the eye can see. It definitely takes a different approach down there!

Later,
dg

The farthest South I got was to the Fort Myers area (in and around Ding Darling Wildlife Refuge). So I wasn't really far enough East from what I can tell from the range maps. I did see a Yellow but couldn't get close enough to check the color on it's tongue since it was up a mangrove tree . Lots of racers though and a few waters that I couldn't identify.
I was travelling for work so I didn't have the time I would have liked during daylight hours to get out and flip rocks and logs. I hear what you're saying about it being different down there. Here in VA, we've got black snakes everywhere, and I usually find one when I'm looking. Abandoned sheds and buildings, piles of lumber or old fire wood are definitely hot spots.
There's always the next trip- and hopefully I'll have the chance to actually get into the glades a bit and see one of those orange critters.

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Lora

Hey RV, if you wanted to breed your male, why didn't you buy one of Dwight's proven female yellows? They are absolutely gorgeous and only $100. Sounds to me like you WANT to intergrade them. I think it would have been better to pick up a nice yellow female for your boy and then next season pick up a pair of everglades. Like you said yourself, pure everglades are getting harder and harder to find, so why not keep a known, pure bloodline pure? Besides, I don't think you will get as much for the intergrade babies as purebreds anyway. Just my opinion. By the way, the South Florida yellow/everglades intergrades used to be known as deckert's rats, but now are just intergrades. Billy

>>my thoughts are this, there just my opinion.
>>
>>Now this is just what iv read so im not saying its right or wrong. I have been reading that finding a true everglades rat with no yellow rat in them is pretty hard to find. And there hard t find because they are intergrading more and more in the wild.
>>
>>Now this female i just got is a captive hatch. But she has a fare amount of yellow on her, now iv never kept everglades before so im not sure if this is normal or not. Also the other reason im wanting to breed her to my yellow rat is because hes the only adult male i have. And the final reason is because i would like to show my little step sister, who is crazy about reptiles, what it takes to breed them and raise a hatchling up. besides letting her watch the female lay her eggs, them hatch and take there first meals, would be a real good way to keep her interested in reptiles.
>>
>>Im not a real big fan of hybrids but i feel that intergrades that occure naturaly are ok aslong long as its not over done. I would like the get a male everglades and a female yellow rat so i could have a pair of yellows and a pair of everglades but for right now im happy and my snakes are happy so thats really all that matter. thanks for the question, i hope i answered it.
>>
>> RV
>>-----
>>Corns 0.0.3
>>0.0.1 03' Amel
>>0.0.1 03' Normal
>>0.0.1 04' Ghost
>>Ratsnakes
>>Yellow Rat 1.0.0 i think
>>Everglades 0.1.0 cb 97'
>>
>>my lil sisters under my supervision
>>0.0.1 Green water dragon ---- "Dragon"

is when i was checking out Dwights ad on the classifides, she was the first one i clicked on and it was love at first sight. Her color was amazing, i knew i wanted her. And when i e-mailed Dwight and got a responce back in like 20 minutes i was like this is it, Theres an amazing snake and a guy that really cares about doing business the right way. What mroe could i ask for. I never thought about breeding her until after i talked to dwight via e-mail and even then it was only a remote possibilty, then when i got her yesterday, i realized that i really did want to breed her. The only reason i want to is for education.

RV
-----
Corns 0.0.3
0.0.1 03' Amel
0.0.1 03' Normal
0.0.1 04' Ghost
Ratsnakes
Yellow Rat 1.0.0 i think
Everglades 0.1.0 cb 97'

my lil sisters under my supervision
0.0.1 Green water dragon ---- "Dragon"

I know the feeling bro. That pretty much sums it up with just about all of Dwight's snakes. I have several gems from Dwight myself.

" when i was checking out Dwights ad on the classifides, she was the first one i clicked on and it was love at first sight."