Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am going to purchase one of those uvb tubes since I have some extra money.I want to see over a period of time if my dragons behavior changes and I plan to oberserve VERY CLOSELY.if he seems healthier I will probably switch but if it's like last time I had one then I going to continue dusting.During this period would I still be able to dust his food with t-rex vmf?I am asking because he is mostly a vegetarian bearded and I feed him probably 10-15 prey items a week so he needs the protein in his diet.O also hes an adult as you all already probably know from the post earlier.I plan on trying this with my uro also and I will post results.

thank you for your time

Since you seem so into supplementation you might find this usefull. My biggest problem with supplements is that there are SO many, how is one supposed to know that the brand you are supplementing with is good?

http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=16276&cid=3977&search=
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

Ok I jumped down your throat because that comment seemed very sarcastic "since your so intent on using supplements you might find this useful".But I am willing to forgive and forget if you are.Also though one problem with post I know my stuff about supplementing I don't need any thing further; besides this post pertains to the question of whether I can use t-rex dust while I use uvb lights not as to whether or not supplementation is good for your reptile.

ok, jeez, i said i was sorry. I just thought it was an interesting article and you would be interested. Lets just forget the whole thing
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

experienced herp vet know
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www.reptilerooms.com

Haha, good point
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

learned.....

7 year vet school, 25 year practice with herps and probably many years prior to school with caring for animals...... I'd think that would be quiet a lot of learning...... course we have to balance that and what she says with your one dragon and what? one year experience?

BTW, you do not "test" and get results from visual observation after a month or two. Do you know what t test are? bone denisty test and especially 25 Hydroxy levels? those are the factual results and I have never seen one even close to what they should be in dragons raised just on supplements, in fact they are terrible. Yet our own test of the above with dragons raised under good UVB either through sunlight or meter checked UVB lights, show there is a significant difference... and every forum, list or owner advised not to use them have some sad results also
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www.reptilerooms.com

Yea?

I didn't say I was going to perform tests.I said I was going to observe him to look for changes in behavior seeing as how you know more then me you probably know theres a difference between the two.Were was it stated I claimed to have more experience than anyone?I don't know where you are getting this from?.I dont want to argue about this topic any further I just want my post answered.Also I bought one of your hammocks the rung fell out how do I fix this?He doesn't lay on it much but it still makes the cage look nice and works better then those crappy zoo med mesh ones.

Or wasn't that you who was selling them for 10$?

Cheri doesn't sell the hammocks...that's Christy, so you didn't buy one from her...

She was letting you know that observing isn't enough when "experimenting" with your dragons health....blood tests and xrays are needed, prior to, during at intervals to really know what effect changes are having....animals are adaptable and may not show ill effects until overwhelmed by them...just food for thought.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com
"Whining is not only graceless, but can be dangerous.
It can alert a brute that a victim is in the neighborhood" ~Maya Angelou

Then why are people saying w/o anyone correcting them that their dragon wasn't kept under uvb by previous owner and now they gained weight and are so active and healthy.Why would the same not happen to my dragon?Aztec lizard breeds beardeds and he is sucessful and uses calcium d3 I'd like to know what he has to add to CheriS's comments.Too bad hes not here.

Please keep my name out of this. I have no desire to get into what I think about anyones comments. I will tell you that I have kept and raised many dragons having never used uvb bulbs. I have raised Uromastyx without uvb bulbs, as well as generations of veiled chams. That's just my experience, and that's all I gotta say about the subject.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

I regret even saying anything to begin with jeeze I didn't think anyone would go berserk on me and try to beat me into the ground I expected a normal reply not a 50 pg debate on the reasons why uvb is better then calcium d3 I guess I should stay off the forums for a while until things cool down......

I don't think anyone needs to correct me! My Veterinarian (also my best friend) treated both of my dragons when I got them. Her diagnosis was what I stated in the other post.

Im sorry if i am kinad lost, but which post did you post the results of those tests in>?
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

that much of the information on both sides is largely observational, uncontrolled and often biased to begin with. Not necessarily the epitimy of scientific method...

This article I found is a good example. It's just like Pacmans study only with 8 beardies instead of one...

"Question: Does UVB make a difference in bearded dragon growth and development or is regular supplements with Calcium with D3 and other good husbandry enough for their ability to thrive.

We received 8 dragons in at the beginning of July as non thrivers. Four of them (Group 1) came from a very knowledgeable breeder, who gave excellent supplements, and what we thought might be inadequate UVB. (tubes) The other 4 (Group 2) came from somebody I knew who'd raise them since hatchlings, again with good supplementation and no UVB as they had been told by the prior breeder that it was not needed if supplemented with calcium with D3. This was an opportunity to see if we could get them growing with the only change being Good quality UVB lights, knowing that both breeders have a good knowledge of reptile care and needs. We have often like others wondered which was the better husbandry for bearded dragons and there is much discussion about UVB or supplements only with D3.

These dragons were an opportunity to study the effects a change would have on them, all had stopped growing or only grow slightly in the previous months.

Group 1 were all clutchmates to each other, and when they arrived, on June 29th, they weighed & measured...

Dragon 1 : 1g 5"
Dragon 2 : 5g 7"
Dragon 3 : 15g 8 1/4"
Dragon 4 : 25g 9 1/2"
At the time we received these dragons, all four of these dragons were 9-10 months old.

The ONLY change we made to their care was to provide them with Mercury Vapor bulbs.

Less than 2 weeks later, on July 11th..

Dragon 1 : 11g 6"
Dragon 2 : 14g 7 1/2"
Dragon 3 : 28g 9"
Dragon 4 : 50g 10"
As I said, the ONLY change in their husbandry was to provide them with lots of UVB from Mercury Vapor bulbs (160 Watt Powersuns to be precise). They also had some outside exposure to natural sun light when possible

At this point, Dragon 2 was sent to a new home where he has continued to grow & thrive under plenty of UVB.

By August 8th...

Dragon 1 : 17g 7"
Dragon 3 : 34g 9 12"
Dragon 4 : 90g 11 1/2"
And this is only in a 6 week period starting at 9-10 months of age. This is a hell of a growth spurt and DEFINITELY shows proof that UVB is essential to the health of these animals.

Now, let's take a look at Group 2..

Dragon 5 : 22g, 9 1/2", 11 Months old
Dragon 6 : 34g, 11", 11 Months old
Dragon 7 : 150g, 17", 2 Years old
Dragon 8 : 170g, 14", 2 Years old
Dragons 5 & 6 were siblings, and dragons 7 & 8 appear to be unrelated adults. The two 2 year olds, both showed signs of MBD, and all four of these dragons were supplemented regularly.

The 4 dragons arrived to us on July 1st.

Only 10 days later, on July 11th...

Dragon 5 : 47g, 10"
Dragon 6 : 52g, 11"
Dragon 7 : 200g, 17"
Dragon 8 : 235, 14.5"
Dragon 5 went off to a new home at the same time as Dragon 2 from the first group. She has now reached over 300g, and is over 17" long.

Dragon 6 is still with us, currently weighs 289g and is 16" long. Dramatic change in weight, length, colors and vitality!

ALL 8 dragons showed significant increase in colour, & activity and their appetite DRAMATICALLY improved almost immediately, when the ONLY change made to their husbandry was to provide UVB in the form of mercury vapor bulbs.

ALL of these dragons were far beyond the age they should be for their sizes, and good care was given by knowledgeable keepers. Again, the ONLY difference between their care with us, and that with their previous keepers, was that we offered them lots of UVB lighting.

Conclusion: No doubt with us, UVB is necessary for bearded dragons to thrive as best they can, although they may survive without it and only supplements with D3, all eight of these dragons prove that UVB exposure, along with other good husbandry gives them the best opportunity to thrive and grow to the size and health they should be."

Here is the link to the site I pulled it from:

http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index-req-viewarticle-artid-55-page-1.html

Thanks,

Ian

n/p

I was cornfused.Not many lady posters so I got em mixed up it was apparently kristyj or something like that BUT THANKS FOR EMBARASSING ME FURTHER LOL.

1. That was the point, observing behavior does not tell you anything about the utilization of Ca

2. I don't sell hammock, never have sold one, have no idea what you are talking about... do you?
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www.reptilerooms.com

I have heard of that before. I know you can go to the vet and have the calcium levels in the blood and such measured? Is that similiar? I am very interested in learning more about this...
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

T-test:

The test results are expressed as 2 types of scores measured by densitometers.

The T-score compares bone mineral density (BMD) to the expected bone density value of a healthy normal young subjct
The Z-score compares BMD to the BMD of a healthy subject who is about the same age and body size.
The T score is usually used to make treatment decisions using a statistical measure called a standard deviation (SD). The SD measures the difference between BMD and that of a healthy young adult. Every -1 SD ("minus 1 standard deviation" ) equals a 10 to 12% decrease in bone density. T score results are classified as follows:

A T score between 0 and -1 standard deviation (SD) is considered to be normal.
A T score between -1 and -2.5 SD is classified as osteopenia (low bone mass).
A T score of -2.5 SD or less is classified as osteoporosis (very low bone mass).
The Z score is used to interpret the test results if you are outside the normal testing range (very young or very old). It is the number of standard deviations (SD) above or below the reference value.

25 Hydroxy levels:

This test is used to determine if a patient has a deficiency or excess of vitamin D.
25-hydroxy vitamin D is the most accurate measure of vitamin D stores in the body.

25-hydroxy vitamin D is stored in the liver where it is converted from other forms of vitamin D either obtained from the diet or made in the skin by sunlight. 25-hydroxy vitamin D is then changed to its active form, 1,25-dihydroxy vitamin D in the kidney. This active form of vitamin D causes increases in calcium and phosphate by activity primarily on the intestines, kidney and bone

Low 25-hydroxy vitamin D levels indicate a deficiency in vitamin D, either from lack of exposure to sunlight or lack of adequate vitamin D in the diet. Vitamin D deficiency may lead to low blood calcium levels (hypocalcemia), thin or weak bones (osteoporosis and osteomalacia), and high levels of parathyroid hormone

High 25-hydroxy vitamin D indicates excess vitamin D and is usually caused by too much vitamin D in the form of dietary supplements. This can lead to high calcium levels *NOTE : not caused by exposure to sunlight or ubv lights, those the animals control themselves, only making what they need.

Here is a fairly good article explaining the value of 25-hydroxy levels. It involves iguana's. The only reason I say fairly and not excellent is it does quote a test that was reportedly done on bearded dragons with no UBV and only Rep_cal Pellets.. but those findings were withdrawn and not valid, nor to the best of my knowledge published anywhere.

How much UVB

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www.reptilerooms.com

thanks, i am definately going to save that for future rfernce and study
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha